Anti-power plant rockets

[swordtart]

Originally Posted by 43Supporter

I suppose one *might* be able to use them effectively en-masse against Plastic-armored vehicles, but I doubt it.

I put stacks of them them on a rig once in quad turrets and sponsons. They were virtually guaranteed to hit and as each turret/sponson was classed as a separate attack all the hazards stacked. It was an interesting experiment, even against metal armoured foes you still took the HS hazard. It looked great, but a quick analysis of the damage per space told the real story. Twin VMGs were a much better option, did massively more damage, often caused a D3 hazard per turret, could still maul metal and could use tracer and other specialist ammo to boot etc. etc. In short it never drove off the paper.

By novice players, I was not referring to Div 5 specifically, just new players, and only in events where the car is provided and all are identical (or possibly allowing limited options on where the weapon and armour are placed). We old hands love designing cars but, for someone who has never played before, designing the car is a fools errand. How many of us wasted hours designing our first car (with too many weapons) only to find it was totalled within a few seconds as we had no understanding of how important armour or acceleration or HC was?

The VS allows plenty of shooting without any one player getting a "lucky shot" wiping out the opposition. Every hit does exactly 2 points, which is always a D1 hazard (which usually equate to fishtails rather than roll and burn) and so you can set up statistically even matches fairly easily. Whilst you can use skill to positively influence your to hit roll, your damage roll is a wholly random result. Winning with a VS means you were the better driver, not just the luckiest. There are no complicated rules to remember (or optional ammunition) and as you can use relatively little armour and still preserve the number of hits / breach ratio, it discourages intentional rams (which is another set of rules you would prefer to avoid with novice players). If a competitor gets hit, they will tend to be wounded, rather than killed outright, which means that you can have campaign continuity (and get beyond the 30 skill point character).

These are simple to justify in a campaign as well. VS equipped vehicles can be dirt cheap to build and maintain with low HC and light chassis. If you use a weapon capped at 2 points damage you can scale down the armour and still preserve the number of hits required to breach (which generally determines the length of the battle). If you CA the power plant and not the driver you increase the chance of the car surviving the breach as they will die before the plant does. Usually they will survive the attack that breached them and can be repaired cheaply and used again (even if a foolhardy driver who pressed his luck needs to be hosed out). The low to hit number means that poor gunners still hit frequently if they choose their shots carefully.

So YES, I agree wholeheartedly that the VS is not competitive in any normal fight or arena event, and no experienced player would touch them with a barge pole. BUT for the specific niche described above it is a perfect weapon.

[Magesmiley]

Originally Posted by sparcipx

I tend to agree - the FG has its uses, and has made its way onto a few of my designs. They're great for mechanically separating meat from potential cycle salvage ;)

Now that I've opened the can of worms, three other weapons I liked in theory but not practice were the unholy trinity of the mine flinger, the oil gun, and the spike gun. With an effective range of only 4" (at least for the mine flinger), in my mind it's easier and less costly in terms of weight and space to use a standard MD, SD, or OJ/ID/PS.

Although it was always fun firing an SG at pedestrians...

The advantage is being able to place the dropped weapon in front of an enemy, so that they cannot avoid it.

The OG is extremely deadly in the right events and usage. It's an unholy nightmare for cars which are jumping and falling. Or ones that have to make a critical turn. The extra D from the oil/ice, if used right, can be horrific.

Even combining it with a moderate 3d weapon and a gunner? That D3 hazard can get pushed up to D7, which at even a moderate speed can get real bad.

I have seen mine flingers used effectively. Not often, but in some arenas (such as the Rainbow Bay Blast Furnace) they can work reasonably well side-mounted. Using a luxury and a pair can often rip through underbodies.

The spike gun... once or twice in lower budget duels. Once you hit about division 20, the odds of solid tires are too high.

Also... I have seen players do stupid maneuvers and wreck their vehicles to avoid a remotely placed dropped weapon counter. :)

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by swordtart

By novice players, I was not referring to Div 5 specifically, just new players, and only in events where the car is provided and all are identical (or possibly allowing limited options on where the weapon and armour are placed). We old hands love designing cars but, for someone who has never played before, designing the car is a fools errand. How many of us wasted hours designing our first car (with too many weapons) only to find it was totalled within a few seconds as we had no understanding of how important armour or acceleration or HC was?

OK -- I've never run an event like that, so I wasn't sure exactly where you were going. For my part: I have a brace of "Amateur Night" designs culled from various sourcebooks, covering a variety of possibilities -- speedsters; "hammer on eggshell"; etc. -- from which I pick a design best-suited to the arena I'm using (for ex.: The arena named for me lends itself to high-speed, high-handling designs; so something in the "subcompact, medium plant; MG" school will be used).

[owenmp]

I have never used an Anti-Power-Plant Rocket.

There should be an APPR Warhead option added to the Advanced Rocket Construction Rules in the ADQ 7/3 article, "Strafing and Rockets in Aeroduel."

The APPR (and APPR Warheads mentioned above) might be more effective if some of the Surge Rocket rules from Car Wars Fifth Edition applied to APPRs.

Some of the effects of Charged-Particle Lasers in the ADQ 10/2 scenario, "Charge of the Light Brigade" might make APPRs more effective as well.

Defenses against electrical attacks such as Surge Protectors may become more important with the rules changes above.

[juris]

APPR's are worthless - it should have just been a cheap modification to an existing rocket - like +%10, with no reduction in damage. The 1d-1 damage makes the APPR garbage - especially if a vehicle has metal armor or component armor around the engine.

The FG and VSG are really bad for all of the reasons stated - and the MML is the king of the anti-ped weapons as Sword stated.

Personally I think burst effect should be 1" per die of the weapon to make the MML less ridiculous.

I'd merge the FG and VSG - keep the VSG as is - but make it do double damage to pedestrians and tires, with the ability to load it with AP ammo (for 8 hits damage on pedestrians).

[sparcipx]

Originally Posted by Magesmiley

The advantage is being able to place the dropped weapon in front of an enemy, so that they cannot avoid it.

The OG is extremely deadly in the right events and usage. It's an unholy nightmare for cars which are jumping and falling. Or ones that have to make a critical turn. The extra D from the oil/ice, if used right, can be horrific.

Even combining it with a moderate 3d weapon and a gunner? That D3 hazard can get pushed up to D7, which at even a moderate speed can get real bad.

I have seen mine flingers used effectively. Not often, but in some arenas (such as the Rainbow Bay Blast Furnace) they can work reasonably well side-mounted. Using a luxury and a pair can often rip through underbodies.

The spike gun... once or twice in lower budget duels. Once you hit about division 20, the odds of solid tires are too high.

Also... I have seen players do stupid maneuvers and wreck their vehicles to avoid a remotely placed dropped weapon counter. :)

Hmmm, interesting. When you put it like that, I can see the mine flinger, grenade launcher, or spike gun being useful in arena like New Boston as well, with all those narrow curves and one-way spikes.

I'm still undecided about the oil gun, but a paint gun with glow-in-the-dark paint would be fun in a night event or road encounter.

Originally Posted by owenmp

There should be an APPR Warhead option added to the Advanced Rocket Construction Rules in the ADQ 7/3 article, "Strafing and Rockets in Aeroduel."

Originally Posted by juris

APPR's are worthless - it should have just been a cheap modification to an existing rocket - like +%10, with no reduction in damage. The 1d-1 damage makes the APPR garbage - especially if a vehicle has metal armor or component armor around the engine.

Agreed, when my group meets, we might discuss a house rule. Throw the constructed APPR-like round into a Rotary Magazine or Rocket Magazine and switch to it if/when you have a remote chance of hitting the plant...

[swordtart]

Originally Posted by juris

APPR's are worthless - it should have just been a cheap modification to an existing rocket - like +%10, with no reduction in damage.

I'd go along with this. Something akin to the incendiary upgrade. I am not even sure the effect is that impressive. Elsewhere it was established that weapons, turrets etc. (other than power draining ones like Lasers) continue to function even if the plant is destroyed, basically the only effect is a forced 5 mph deceleration each turn. It's hardly a game changer.

If it could fry the plant before a breach it would be something or if it hit any internal component that was connected to the plant (basically everything).

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by sparcipx

Hmmm, interesting. When you put it like that, I can see the mine flinger, grenade launcher, or spike gun being useful in arena like New Boston as well, with all those narrow curves and one-way spikes.

When I was with NOVA, I won a Championship event in the "Hourglass Arena" with judicious placement of spikes at chokepoints -- and that was with normal SDs; a Spike Gun in that arena would have been impressive.

In my files, I have notes on how "any burst-effect weapon can be modified to fire grenade-type loads" -- imagine having a RR which can fire anything from "conventional" loads to WP or Thermite....

[Magesmiley]

Originally Posted by sparcipx

I'm still undecided about the oil gun, but a paint gun with glow-in-the-dark paint would be fun in a night event or road encounter.

Trust me, the hazards can be very bad. And the ice loads are nasty enough that I'll spring for snow tires in my designs sometimes.

Standard dropped weapons can usually be avoided or minimized to some extent, if given enough time. Putting one in front of someone eliminates their ability to avoid or minimize it, effectively maximizing the value of the dropped weapon.



And I'd concur APPRs are worthless big time.

The only case I'd even vaguely ponder one is if I'm going for salvage value. And even then, it's probably not worth it. Maybe ambushing a big rig or a bus where the PP has enough DP for it to make a difference and leave the vehicle more salvageable. Maybe.

[kabson]

Originally Posted by Magesmiley

And I'd concur APPRs are worthless big time.

The only case I'd even vaguely ponder one is if I'm going for salvage value. And even then, it's probably not worth it. Maybe ambushing a big rig or a bus where the PP has enough DP for it to make a difference and leave the vehicle more salvageable. Maybe.

I have a vague memory of the APPR appearing in a salvage/repo story in ADQ, and sneaking their way onto the equipment list from there. They work a lot better if they have needed-for-plot bonuses.

It's a long time ago, so I might be completely wrong...