theme for a fantasy campaign

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

If jotuns are the same as the Danish 'jætter', denizens of Jotunheim (which seems likely), then "troll" and "jotun" are not synonyms. Jotuns are giants. Trolls are usually not very much bigger (though a lot stronger) than humans (and can be found in Midgard). I suppose some stories could have mixed them up, but some trolls live under bridges while jotuns have gloves big enough to be mistaken for caves. "Thurs" sounds like 'turser', which are ice giants.

Tolkien portrays trolls as the largest of the peoples of Middle-Earth, and I'm going with that. There's a known pattern where life in cold climates runs bigger than life in warm climates, because of the thermal efficiency of bodies with a low surface to volume ratio. But I also just like the fantasy image of a troll as a huge figure looming out of the snow.

I've thought a bit about sexual dimorphism in the various races. My current image is that selkies have much larger males (as in some seal species); men have slightly larger males; elves have minimal dimorphism; dwarves have slightly larger females (and may have sterile "workers," like mole rats); and trolls have much larger females, who are smarter than the males and tend to be skilled in magic. Not sure yet about ghouls or halflings.

Bill Stoddard

[Anders]

Ok. I don't know what just happened.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Tolkien portrays trolls as the largest of the peoples of Middle-Earth, and I'm going with that. There's a known pattern where life in cold climates runs bigger than life in warm climates, because of the thermal efficiency of bodies with a low surface to volume ratio. But I also just like the fantasy image of a troll as a huge figure looming out of the snow.

Bill Stoddard

Bergman's rule. According to Allen's rule, they should also have proportionately shorter limbs.

Hans - Jotun and jättar, thurs and troll... these are not precise taxonomic divisions we're talking about. It's probably more a matter of dialect word for "big and scary".

[Bengt]

Originally Posted by whswhs

If they're relying on their own byproducts, you have the Perpetual Motion Fur Farm (raise rats, feed the rats to cats, skin the cats, and feed the cat bodies to the rats).

Bill Stoddard

That's where the bat guano comes in! Guano was the best pre industrial fertilizer. And potentially also collecting brush from the mountain.

My big problem with importing all their food is that I understood this to be a setting without reliable long distance transport or industrialized farming. So the dwarfs will get their food from the regions directly adjacent to their mountain. Say this particular mountain have three trading partners they get food from. If they get into conflict with one, the other two would have to increase their food export by 50% to keep up or the dwarfs will starve. If there droughts or similar, the adjacent regions will feed themselves first and then trade the surplus, if there is any. Again the dwarfs get the short end of the stick.

It seems that over a longer time all the dwarfs are bound to starve to death unless the transportation TL is much higher than the mentioned 1-2. The other solution is to let the dwarfs feed themselves, perhaps they farm in protected valleys (like Revelstone) if you don't like bats.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Bengt

That's where the bat guano comes in! Guano was the best pre industrial fertilizer. And potentially also collecting brush from the mountain.

My big problem with importing all their food is that I understood this to be a setting without reliable long distance transport or industrialized farming. So the dwarfs will get their food from the regions directly adjacent to their mountain. Say this particular mountain have three trading partners they get food from. If they get into conflict with one, the other two would have to increase their food export by 50% to keep up or the dwarfs will starve. If there droughts or similar, the adjacent regions will feed themselves first and then trade the surplus, if there is any. Again the dwarfs get the short end of the stick.

It seems that over a longer time all the dwarfs are bound to starve to death unless the transportation TL is much higher than the mentioned 1-2. The other solution is to let the dwarfs feed themselves, perhaps they farm in protected valleys (like Revelstone) if you don't like bats.

The other side of that coin, though, is that if you let your conflict with the dwarves cause you to stop trading with them, and the dwarves all starve (or even close down their mines and move away), you have no source of metals and minerals. That has a downside for your ability to wage war. So there is going to be some selective pressure against engaging in that kind of conflict.

I'm sure there are dwarves who acquire food for themselves from the surface around their mines. A dwarven community that doesn't grow any of its own food may well be unusual. But it makes sense to me that some food is transported in, and traded for mineral products, and that a dwarf community that loses its market falls on hard times, including a measure of famine.

Bill Stoddard

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by whswhs

The other side of that coin, though, is that if you let your conflict with the dwarves cause you to stop trading with them, and the dwarves all starve (or even close down their mines and move away), you have no source of metals and minerals. That has a downside for your ability to wage war. So there is going to be some selective pressure against engaging in that kind of conflict.

That seems likely, over time, to lead to communities of humans, dwarves, and other races with whom they have mutually dependent trade relationships becoming quite closely associated. You might get some kind of council formed from representatives of the various communities to organise matters.

[namada]

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[whswhs]

Originally Posted by fartrader

That's what I was envisioning - the Dwarves would control the surface of the mountains, essentially turning the forests there into their lumber-stock for the compost to grow the mushrooms in. This would put them in direct conflict with elves, but such things could have been hashed out by treaties long ago.

Or not. A roleplaying setting needs conflicts.

One of the implications of this milieu is that there is less reliance on culture as a means of adaptation, and more on biological differences. So to some degree "elf" and "dwarf" and "man" stand in for cultural patterns, with lower cultural diversity in any one race. The different races as a result will have some of the tensions that exist in humans between different cultures—mitigated by their having biological specializations that make different habitats suitable for them, but enhanced by their tending to encroach on each other's habitats.

Bill Stoddard

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I require a reference for this, as it does not seem compatible with what I know about bioenergetics.

There are some very low activity endoliths that might qualify, but they wouldn't have anything close to the productivity needed. In the end, most life is solar powered because 99.97% of the Earth's energy budget is solar.

[Bengt]

Originally Posted by whswhs

with lower cultural diversity in any one race.

Do you plan to have for example Jungle Elves and Taiga Elves be significantly different?