Ninja Stealth Assassination

[KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads]

Originally Posted by Matuku

A bit off-topic but someone doing 2d-3 sw with a knife (2d-1 for strength, sw-2 for knife) can do less damage than someone doing 1d+1 damage with a knife; is it possible to do 0 damage with an attack in GURPS or do you always do a minimum of 1 before DR (in 3e there was something about this)?

1) The first guy deals more damage than the second one: 2d-3 against 1d-1 (remember to subtract the -2 for the knife) is an average of 4 against 3 and a maximum of 9 against 5.
2) You can never deal less than one damage after DR is subtracted (see B379).

[runarm]

Originally Posted by zorg

Why start with a grapple? I mean, the target will probably be stunned or unconscious if I choose an AoA, so grappling shouldn't be necessary. Right?

Not necessarily. Even with a double attack AOA you are not guaranteed to put your enemy down since the damage from the two attacks does not stack for major wound purposes.
Doing a single strong AOA "might" put him down, but it's a risk since you might not hit and you might not do enough damage even if you do.
Starting the attack with a grapple allows you to keep the enemy from getting away from you in case your initial attack fails to put him down and it reduces his possible defenses and attack possibilities as well.
Also, your GM might give you a +1 to hit the neck for having the opponent in a grapple, especially if he's mentally stunned.
As a GM I would also ask a player exactly how he planned on cutting the enemy's throat from behind without grabbing hold of the target - that is unless the attacker is unusually lanky. After all, unless the target has a long neck, pulling the head back to expose the throat is almost a requirement.

R.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by runarm

Not necessarily. Even with a double attack AOA you are not guaranteed to put your enemy down since the damage from the two attacks does not stack for major wound purposes.
Doing a single strong AOA "might" put him down, but it's a risk since you might not hit and you might not do enough damage even if you do.
Starting the attack with a grapple allows you to keep the enemy from getting away from you in case your initial attack fails to put him down and it reduces his possible defenses and attack possibilities as well.
Also, your GM might give you a +1 to hit the neck for having the opponent in a grapple, especially if he's mentally stunned.
As a GM I would also ask a player exactly how he planned on cutting the enemy's throat from behind without grabbing hold of the target - that is unless the attacker is unusually lanky. After all, unless the target has a long neck, pulling the head back to expose the throat is almost a requirement.

R.

I've heard, from more than one source, that sentry removal by attacking the neck is accomplished by stabbing from side to side, and then pushing the blade outward through the throat. This increases the chance that the carotid and jugular on at least one side, and possibly both, are severed.

It will take no less than 3-4 seconds for the victim to lose consciousness and die from loss of blood volume; that 3-4 second number is also how long it takes, MINIMUM, to bleed out from a fully transected aorta.

[Ludo]

I think that's the point: instant death blow is realistically close to impossible with a knife.

Don't mix up "mortal blow" and "instant death".

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by zorg

Am I missing something?

Yes, fred is clearly not a ninja. Also strong stabs to the vitals are probably better.

[blacksmith]

I would also use power blow if I was trying to make a ninja who could kill someone like that, and after all can he be a ninja if he does not have Trained by a Master? I mean where does realism have anything to do with Ninjas?

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by Matuku

is it possible to do 0 damage with an attack in GURPS or do you always do a minimum of 1 before DR (in 3e there was something about this)?

Originally Posted by KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads

2) You can never deal less than one damage after DR is subtracted (see B379).

I don't have 4e Campaigns in front of me, however, I do believe that there is one exception. Crushing damage can indeed yield a damage before DR that is zero. All other types of damage have a minimum of 1 before DR is subtracted.

p.s. After writing, I see there is a thread now for "Minimum Damage" in which zorg gives the correct information for evaluating damage before and after subtracting DR.
damage rules

[zorg]

This is a nice summary, Agemegos. Add to that the possibility of a *further* turn attacking the victim, and all is set. Thanks!

[runarm]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I've heard, from more than one source, that sentry removal by attacking the neck is accomplished by stabbing from side to side, and then pushing the blade outward through the throat. This increases the chance that the carotid and jugular on at least one side, and possibly both, are severed.

I'm pretty sure that the technique is the same as the commando technique I've been trying to convey in game terms. However, in RL the way you do it is to grab the head, stab the knife into the left side of the neck (if you're right handed) and then tear across the throat from left to right. It's not a deliberate movement outward, that just happens as a result of what you're doing. The end result is slashed arteries on one side of the neck, possibly both (although that is redundant) as well as cut windpipe and vocal cords making anything louder than a quiet gurgle impossible.
Keep in mind that most commonly carried military issue knives today won't necessarily reach all the way through a man's neck, so relying on that plus a purely outward motion doesn't really make sense, plus with an outwards motion you're basically pulling away from yourself, thus negating some of your own strength.

Back to Fred the Ninja - with his ST of 10 he might want to try a wire garrote. I found the rules in 4e for garroting to be quite nasty.

R.

[kure]

Originally Posted by Agemegos

1d-2 averages 1.5 only if you allow that a roll of 1 does negative damage. Given a minimum of 1 point (before DR), the average is (1 + 1 + 1 + 2 +3 +4)/6 = 2.

Fred the Ninja's best chance looks like stabbing with his large knife for Thr impaling damage instead of chopping with it for Sw-2 cutting. So he is doing 1d-2 impaling, and can target the vitals for triple damage or the eye for quadruple.

Fred takes an all-out attack, of course. If he does a strong attack that is 1d tripled or quadrupled (depending on whether he targets the eye or kidney), producing a major wound on any roll except a 1. If he does a double attack, either one will inflict a major wound on a roll of 4, 5, or 6. So the double attack will do 14% more damage on average, but the strong attack has an 83% chance of inflicting a major wound, and the double attack has only 75% chance of inflicting at least one major wound.

In the situation specified, Fred the ninja assassin should take an all-out attack and stab the sentry strongly in the eye for 83% chance of a major wound.

What is the optimal strategy for Eddie, a ST11 commando?

When you assume that your Fred the ninja hit automaticaly (which is IMO wrong) he should go for eye.
Most important is not x4 damage mod. but -10 for knockout roll.
In this low power setup will not be enough damage to actually kill someone, but with failed knockout roll by 5 or more victim pass out. (and probably will bleed to death)

And what will realy help is Extra Effort. (+2 base damage per attack)