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Old 03-29-2023, 08:08 AM   #1
Nedorus
 
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Default DR Hardened Beyond Divisor (1)

I was wondering whether Hardened would have any effect on an attack's armor divisor beyond (1).
i.e. Lets assume "Hardened 2".
  1. Would an attack without armor divisor (1) be further reduce to (0.2)?
  2. Would an attack with armor divisor (2) be further reduced to (0.5)?

B47 states the "levels" to be “ignores DR,” 100, 10, 5, 3, 2, and 1 (no divisor). So RAW this seems not to be the case. However the further levels (fractional divisors) clearly exist (e.g. B268).

Even though this is a yes/no question, I'd also like to understand "the reasoning" behind the rule to make an educated decision whether I want to "house rule" this and what the consequences would be (I'm not good at munchkining so often I don't see interactions with other rules that may "break the game" when house ruling)
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Old 03-29-2023, 08:23 AM   #2
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Default Re: DR Hardened Beyond Divisor (1)

Harden negates armor divisors.

So, with your example of harden 2 and assume the attack does 4 points of damage:

1. An attack with no armor divisor (1) would do normal damage of 4 points.

2. An attack with armor divisor (2) would do normal damage too because the harden level of 2 negates it.

3. An attack with armor divisor (4) would do twice the damage (8 points) because the harden level of 2 divides the armor divisor by 2 (4/2=2).

4. An attack with armor divisor (0.5) would do half the damage (2 points) only because harden is only for negating an armor divisor greater than 1.
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Old 03-29-2023, 09:00 AM   #3
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Default Re: DR Hardened Beyond Divisor (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedorus View Post
Even though this is a yes/no question, I'd also like to understand "the reasoning" behind the rule to make an educated decision whether I want to "house rule" this and what the consequences would be (I'm not good at munchkining so often I don't see interactions with other rules that may "break the game" when house ruling)
Hardened simply negates some or all of the extra penetration provided by an armor divisor. Armor that reduces the penetration of all attacks is just more armor.
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Old 03-29-2023, 09:25 AM   #4
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Default Re: DR Hardened Beyond Divisor (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoncxs View Post
Harden negates armor divisors.
So how would it "negate" a divisor of (0.5)? I think that thinking of this to "negate something" is not according to RAW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by B47
reduces the armor divisor of an attack by one step
The steps are listed to be
  • “ignores DR”
  • 100
  • 10
  • 5
  • 3
  • 2
  • 1 (no divisor)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoncxs View Post
3. An attack with armor divisor (4) would do twice the damage (8 points) because the harden level of 2 divides the armor divisor by 2 (4/2=2).
I think, from everything I've read, that this is clearly wrong.
First Hardened doesn't divide the Armor Divisor it shifts it one level down (see quote above).

Second, damage is NOT multiplied by the "armor divisor". Armor is reduced!
e.g.
  • 5 damage (4)*
    4 armor hardened 2
    would first move the divisor to two levels lower (4->3->2) which reduces the "effective armor" to 2 (4 divided by 2 = 2) with 3 damage coming through (5-2=3).
  • Same attack vs. 4 armor without hardening would reduce the "effective armor" to 1 (4/4=1) with 4 damage coming through.
  • Same attack vs. NO armor would simply do 5 damage. NOT 10, or 20 or something like that...

* 4 doesn't seem to be a proper level as the levels are defined to be 2, 3, 5 ... I understand that "in-between" levels have been discussed elsewhere and how they work so let's ignore this for now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zoncxs View Post
4. An attack with armor divisor (0.5) would do half the damage (2 points) only because harden is only for negating an armor divisor greater than 1.
No again, I think.
Let's assume the
  • 5 damage (0.5)
    vs. 4 armor (hardened 2)
    RAW hardened wouldn't do anything. The armor divisor doubles "effective armor" to 8 with 0 (5-8<=0) damage coming through.
  • Same attack vs. 4 armor (no hardening) would result in 0 damage coming through (armor divisor double sarmor to 8 and 5-8<=0).
  • Same attack vs. 1 armor ( hardened 2) according to RAW would result in: hardened doesn't do anything. Armor Divisor doubles the armor to 2 with 3 damage coming through.

Why is it not: Hardened moves armor divisor to (0.5->0.2->0.1) resulting in armor 10 with zero damage coming through?


So why does Hardened seemingly stop at (1) and doesn't continue to (0.5), (0.2), (0.1)?

[EDIT]I understand the mechanics of Hardened. My question is NOT about HOW it works, but WHY it was designed this way. I want to make a better call whether or not to house-rule this. Also I want to be able to judge the cost of of a possible "Hardened (house-rule)" and it's implications when considering interaction with other rules.[/EDIT]

Last edited by Nedorus; 03-29-2023 at 09:36 AM. Reason: Clarifying my question further
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Old 03-29-2023, 09:43 AM   #5
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Default Re: DR Hardened Beyond Divisor (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedorus View Post
[EDIT]I understand the mechanics of Hardened. My question is NOT about HOW it works, but WHY it was designed this way. I want to make a better call whether or not to house-rule this. Also I want to be able to judge the cost of of a possible "Hardened (house-rule)" and it's implications when considering interaction with other rules.[/EDIT]
Because like RyanW said, armor that reduces the penetration of all attacks is just more armor.

In addition, it's more armor that you buy more cheaply. There would be very, very little reason to ever buy DR that didn't have at least enough levels of hardened to reduce (1) attacks to the lowest allowed armor divisor. (The reason to not buy Hardened on all DR as it is is that attacks with (1) armor divisor are common and are not affected by it.)
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Old 03-29-2023, 09:50 AM   #6
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Default Re: DR Hardened Beyond Divisor (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedorus View Post
So why does Hardened seemingly stop at (1) and doesn't continue to (0.5), (0.2), (0.1)?
Because, as previously noted, DR that is functionally multiplied against all attacks is just... more DR. Really, armor divisors should simply follow the Size and Speed/Range table, so that you have something like (0.1), (0.15), (0.2), (0.3), (0.5), (0.7), (1), (1.5), (2), (3), (5), (7), (10), etc. But people don't like dividing by 15 or 7, so those get skipped over. This results in a bit of odd behavior, like one level of Hardened being more effective against AD (2), (10), and (100) than against the other armor divisors, but arguably being able to do the calculations more readily in one's head is worth such a relatively-minor issue.

As for realism, it's been argued that Hardened really isn't a realistic trait - rather, it's more appropriate to say that certain armor types have higher DR against certain threats. But just simplifying this to say "You can have Hardened DR, which means it downgrades positive armor divisors one step" is a lot easier.

If you want armor that downgrades a normal (1) attack to (0.5), buy armor that has twice as much DR.
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Old 03-29-2023, 11:45 AM   #7
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Default Re: DR Hardened Beyond Divisor (1)

OK, so I get how you would interpret "hardened" as an "armor multiplier".

I also understand how basically ALL armor would become "Hardened" in a campaign where most attacks are without armor divisor as it is much cheaper than buying higher levels of DR.

However, the same is true in a campaign where armor divisors are rather the norm (e.g. Cyberpunkian Ultra-Tec Style campaign or some Supers campaigns). When most people in the campaign are equipped with 10mmCLP 3d+3(2) APDS type pistols then buying DR42 (210 Points) is much less points efficient (or money) vs. buying DR21 hardened 1 (126 Points).

So why is Hardened not caped at the "most common level of armor devisor"?

Or priced based on the Tech-Level of the campaign? OK, I get why that would be VERY odd (^_ ^)

With rising levels of damage in higher Tech-Levels things like Afflictions start to become impossible to use when the DR of the target is taken into account.
e.g.
At TL9 we are easily talking 5d (average 17-18 damage, max 30) and armor in the ranges of DR30 as well.
Most affliction levels would be almost certainly resisted with that kind of armor... Wouldn't it make sense, to down-scale the armor to "fantasy levels" and raise Hardened-Levels instead?

Still not convinced that the answers given so far really answer my question ... Particularly a "house-rule pricing" suggestion I still hope for (~_°)
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Old 03-29-2023, 12:13 PM   #8
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Default Re: DR Hardened Beyond Divisor (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedorus View Post
So why is Hardened not caped at the "most common level of armor devisor"?
GURPS typically doesn't adjust things like default levels, point costs, etc, based on the campaign. There are some exceptions to this (like Accessibility), and there are good arguments for making more exceptions (like adjusting the pricing for Innate Attack and DR based on the TL of the setting), but that's the way it goes.

If you want to set it to the most common level of armor divisor, that's potentially an option (so probably capped at (0.5) for TL 0 campaigns and possibly some TL 7-9 campaigns if most people are using hollowpoint ammunition; (1) for most TL 1-7 campaigns - as well as many later ones, not all high TL campaigns are going to have high armor divisors; (2) for military-focused TL 8-9 where AP/APHC are common; etc). But that will exacerbate the issue that DR is arguably overpriced already in such campaigns (as you can just purchase armor that gives you the equivalent of 100+ character points worth of DR for a relatively-small amount of money), while as it currently stands the fact you can typically get away with getting a lot of your effective DR by tossing Hardened on it (if everyone is using weapons with a (3) armor divisor, you can effectively triple your DR for a mere +40% Enhancement). So then you may need to adjust the price for things like DR, and that's potentially a whole other can of worms to deal with...
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Old 03-29-2023, 12:21 PM   #9
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Default Re: DR Hardened Beyond Divisor (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedorus View Post
However, the same is true in a campaign where armor divisors are rather the norm (e.g. Cyberpunkian Ultra-Tec Style campaign or some Supers campaigns). When most people in the campaign are equipped with 10mmCLP 3d+3(2) APDS type pistols then buying DR42 (210 Points) is much less points efficient (or money) vs. buying DR21 hardened 1 (126 Points)
I do not think loading pistols with APDS is a reasonable expectation. If hardened DR is highly available that makes it even less reasonable since a big part of the benefit is lost!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedorus View Post
With rising levels of damage in higher Tech-Levels things like Afflictions start to become impossible to use when the DR of the target is taken into account.
In general I would not use afflictions that are blocked by DR that way. Most afflictions should use modifiers that eliminate that rule.
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Old 03-29-2023, 01:03 PM   #10
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Default Re: DR Hardened Beyond Divisor (1)

I think I like the idea of caping the lowest end of hardened to (2) in a "military-focused TL 8-9 where AP/APHC are common" campaign.

Since I'm working on my spells for "that other game" (cyberpunk with Elves running in the shadows) I need to consider the interaction between magical armor vs. high-tec armor.
Also I want to get the disparity between "Low-Techs wearing chain-mail gang armor" and high-tec Corporate military unit equipment apparent but balanced.

@Ulzgoroth @Varyon Thanks for your replies. You've given me some stuff to think on. It helps me making "the right decisions" for my campaign.
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