Help/Advice with a GURPS Shadowrun Game

[DAT]

With some inspiration from the other “GURPS Shadowrun” thread, I am preparing to run a Shadowrun game using GURPS rules. Players have selected the following characters concepts:
1) Troll Street Samurai,
2) Elf Weapon Specialist,
3) Human Decker/Rigger,
4) Human Spellcaster (Probably a Rat Shaman),
and
5) Human Technomancer.

Here are the issues I’m running into, which I would appreciate help/advice:

A. For the Human Decker/Rigger –
A.1) Thoughts opinions on whether I should I have separate “Decks”, with extra equipment dedicated for hacking, or just stay with the wireless interface jacks from Ultra-Tech?
A.2) If I use dedicated Decks, should I use some of the 3e GURPS Cyberpunk rules, with speed?
A.3) Or just require purchase of a mini computer (with associated hardware costs) and have software (with costs associated with ICE breakers etc.)?
A.4) Should I use the basic costs or inflate (geometric or exponential progression) them for speed/power/skill bonuses?

My intent for Decking is to have in game time contested rolls (vs system security/other decker/AI), rather than extended Matrix adventures (when the other players sit and twiddle their thumbs).

Besides a Deck, the Players wants a van to transport the group and flying gunship drones (armed with machine guns/missiles) as well as Smartgun Goggles, toolkits, etc.

A.5) Thoughts on the Drones being Allies, versus just bought equipment?
A.6) Thoughts on a starting cash amount (I was thinking 40k, to represent a late TL9 with some TL10 elements)?
A.7) Thoughts on a GURPS $ to nuyen conversion? (Pick a piece of equipment common to both GURPS and Shadowrun, and using that ratio as the conversion seems simple, but the SR prices seem to vary a bit, so I’m not sure what equipment/service to use as the baseline.)

B. For the Human Spellcaster –
B.1) I am still debating what Magic System to use Basic/Advantage/Ritual Path/etc., so would appreciated any thoughts?

B.2)Since the players’ concept is a Rat Shaman, if I go with the Basic System, I was thinking about stealing the Shaman template from GURPS DF Summoners. But to allow a Spellcaster to better hang with the other runners, I was thinking of boosting their available Magical Energy.
Be Idea I am kicking around is to multiple their Will by their Magery/Power level (0 counting as 0.5) to calculate their energy points. Casting a spell would cost Energy Points and Fatigue at 1 FP per 3 Eps. So if the Shaman has Will 13 and Power 3, they would have 39 points to cast with. But if they only has 10 FPs, they would have to take HP damage to cast with the last 9 EP. Thoughts?

B.3) Another issue with the Rat Shaman is their main Ally. Rather than a Giant Rat or single small Rat, the idea of a Swarm of Spirit Rats. Thoughts/Suggestions?

B.4) I am not bothering with the question of Cyberware/Bioware reducing Magical Power yet. But I would appreciate any thoughts.

C. For the Human Technomancer –
Player had the idea for the PC to have a nano/micro machine swarm Allly that he wore, which allowed him to do his magic. It would provide his armor, allow his to do digital possession of computer systems, maybe have a surge attack, etc.
C.1) The build screams an Ally Build to me. Write the swarm up as 50 point Ally providing the desired effects. Any thoughts or suggestions?
C.2) Thoughts on a cost, or should I make it just points?

D. Other
Any other thoughts/advice?

-Dan

[Refplace]

I recommend Pyramid 3/21 over 3e Cyberpunk.
Its built more along the lines of Action! and is better suited to a decker working alongside other characters rather than hacking as its own minigame.
For magic I first have a question/observation.
Is cybertech going to cost points or just money?
* If points then I suggest a Powers based system like Sorcery or a modified Divine Favor for balance. That also works well with your warriors if they have cinematic advantages.
* If cybernetics just cost money then a non powers based method would likely be more fair.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by DAT

A. For the Human Decker/Rigger –
A.1) Thoughts opinions on whether I should I have separate “Decks”, with extra equipment dedicated for hacking, or just stay with the wireless interface jacks from Ultra-Tech?

I'd definitely recommend that deckers should have to buy computers to do most of their work. A basic one (a Small TL 9 one, for instance) is well within the budget of even struggling or poor characters, but there's plenty of room there for expansion and upgrades, both of the basic hardware, and the software. In my experience with Shadowrun, decker characters are some of the most interested in the "upgrade game".

Originally Posted by DAT

A.2) If I use dedicated Decks, should I use some of the 3e GURPS Cyberpunk rules, with speed?

I'd absolutely concur with Refplace here - use the rules from Pyramid.

Originally Posted by DAT

A.5) Thoughts on the Drones being Allies, versus just bought equipment?

I'd do them as Allies, because I treat Riggers as having Possession with Puppets Only, and the drones thus have to be Allies to be Puppets. Since most drones will have low template costs, though (due to having limited or no IQ), I'd suggest using the rules for cheaper Allies if they're worth less than 25% of the character's total (Supers p. 68 or Zombies p. 27).

Originally Posted by DAT

A.6) Thoughts on a starting cash amount (I was thinking 40k, to represent a late TL9 with some TL10 elements)?

Sounds reasonable to me. Lots of shadowrunners probably start at lower-than-average Wealth, but conversely, many can justify getting the full 100% of starting funds available for adventuring gear, due to being unsettled wanderers.

Originally Posted by DAT

A.7) Thoughts on a GURPS $ to nuyen conversion? (Pick a piece of equipment common to both GURPS and Shadowrun, and using that ratio as the conversion seems simple, but the SR prices seem to vary a bit, so I’m not sure what equipment/service to use as the baseline.)

IIRC, the standard SR assumption as of 3rd Edition was that 1 nuyen = 2 American dollars as of when the book was published. That lines up pretty well with GURPS 4e's assumption that 1 GURPS dollar = 1 dollar as of GURPS 4e's publication in 2004. That's the conversion I'd use: 1 nuyen = 2 GURPS dollars.

Originally Posted by DAT

B. For the Human Spellcaster –
B.1) I am still debating what Magic System to use Basic/Advantage/Ritual Path/etc., so would appreciated any thoughts?

When I've run GURPS Shadowrun recently, I built the spellcasting characters using the Sorcery system. It's not a perfect fit for SR, but it does work, I feel. For one thing, it's decently balanced against other characters, since it's built on advantages, so there's fewer issues than with, say, the standard magic system, where spellcasters can pick up spells like Utter Dome.

It does provide more flexibility than rules-legal SR casters exhibit, since the Sorcery system technically allows casters to improvise a wide variety of cheap spells, or somewhat more expensive spells at a higher cost. But you could always tweak that, if you didn't like it.

Originally Posted by DAT

B.3) Another issue with the Rat Shaman is their main Ally. Rather than a Giant Rat or single small Rat, the idea of a Swarm of Spirit Rats. Thoughts/Suggestions?

There are some stats for a swarm of insects in Dungeon Fantasy 5: Allies (p. 9) that you could probably adapt into a rat swarm.

Originally Posted by DAT

B.4) I am not bothering with the question of Cyberware/Bioware reducing Magical Power yet. But I would appreciate any thoughts.

I'd handle this by saying that for every [X] points a character takes in 'ware, they have to reduce their relevant Talent (Magery, Sorcery Talent, whatever) by 1 point. If they take limitations on it, they can keep using it, but otherwise, it's just lost. The number of points in cyber/bioware that would reduce the character's magic would be up to you - set it higher to allow more, lower for a more restrictive setup. So, for example, say you set it at 10 points in cyberware per point of magic. A mage with Magery 3 who got a cyberjack implanted (Telecommunication (Cable Jack) [5]) would have to reduce their highest level of Magery by 1 point. If they just let it happen, they'd lose their Magery, dropping to Magery 2. Instead, they could take a -10% limitation ("Must chant in a loud voice" for instance), to reduce its cost to only 9 points. Now, they still have Magery 3, but to access that highest level, they'd have to do a chant. Basically, this replicates the way SR mages can take bans, rituals, etc. on their Magic to mitigate the drawbacks of cyberware.

Originally Posted by DAT

C. For the Human Technomancer –
Player had the idea for the PC to have a nano/micro machine swarm Allly that he wore, which allowed him to do his magic. It would provide his armor, allow his to do digital possession of computer systems, maybe have a surge attack, etc.
C.1) The build screams an Ally Build to me. Write the swarm up as 50 point Ally providing the desired effects. Any thoughts or suggestions?

I'd build this as an Ally with the Special Abilities modifier, and the actual advantages being paid for by the technomancer character, with the -40% for "Granted by Familiar". Also, if the nano-swarm can only do one trick at a time, the abilities could probably also claim the 1/5th cost reduction for being Alternate Abilities of each other.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by DAT

B. For the Human Spellcaster –
B.1) I am still debating what Magic System to use Basic/Advantage/Ritual Path/etc., so would appreciated any thoughts?

Another vote for Sorcery/Advantage based magic. Advantage based magic has the same costs as other systems and a much more limited set of spells, so you're less likely to discover after a few sessions that the mage can invade every other character's non-combat roles.

B.2)Since the players’ concept is a Rat Shaman, if I go with the Basic System, I was thinking about stealing the Shaman template from GURPS DF Summoners. But to allow a Spellcaster to better hang with the other runners, I was thinking of boosting their available Magical Energy.
Be Idea I am kicking around is to multiple their Will by their Magery/Power level (0 counting as 0.5) to calculate their energy points. Casting a spell would cost Energy Points and Fatigue at 1 FP per 3 Eps. So if the Shaman has Will 13 and Power 3, they would have 39 points to cast with. But if they only has 10 FPs, they would have to take HP damage to cast with the last 9 EP. Thoughts?

I'm on record as thinking the shaman is not a very good template for DF, and having suggestions for improving them.
In Shadowrun, the basic shaman is somewhat more appropriate, but it still struggles to contribute if the team isn't facing non-corporeal spirits. It's not a very good match for Shadowrun style shamans - who are generalist magic users who summon a different set of semi-corporeal spirits than other mages.

B.3) Another issue with the Rat Shaman is their main Ally. Rather than a Giant Rat or single small Rat, the idea of a Swarm of Spirit Rats. Thoughts/Suggestions?

In addition to the existing insect swarm ally from DF5: Allies, I would expect that spirit rats are incorporeal, and thus the exact details of their physical form is mostly a descriptive detail and not a mechanical effect. From the perspective of the troll samurai, whether the spirit in that hex has a single body that he can't affect or 4 dozen smaller bodies that he can't affect is not really that important.

B.4) I am not bothering with the question of Cyberware/Bioware reducing Magical Power yet. But I would appreciate any thoughts.

I suggested in the previous thread that the Essence/Magic balancing act was a not very satisfactory outcome of Shadowrun's rules, and in GURPS, if you're paying CP for magic and CP for cyberware, then mixed wizards cyborgs are going to be inherently more balanced because a 300 CP street samurai, 300 CP mage, and 300 CP technomage all have 300 CP to spend on advantages.

If you really want to force the metal/magic divide, I again recommend letting people purchase an unlimited (within their point budget) amount of magic OR cyberware, but only a total of 50 (or 100, or whatever) CP if they want to have both. So a street samurai can be as metal as he want, and a pure mage as magic as he can afford, but a technomage is buying metal and magic from the same limited pool.

C. For the Human Technomancer –
C.2) Thoughts on a cost, or should I make it just points?

Points. Put as much as possible on the same power schedule and you'll have less headaches down the road.

D. Other
Any other thoughts/advice?

Make sure that all your character concepts are around the same conceptual power level. The SR1e thing where you had:
* shaman, who could use astral sight to see through any disguise, astral movement to scout ahead with less risk to himself, summon spirit allies to provide heavy hitting combat power, summon spirits to provide a wide variety of useful non-combat effects, and could cast some spells too
* hermetic mage, who could do most of the same things as the shaman, but with a slightly different set of trade-offs in how he summoned his spirits
* rigger, who could control an army of drones from the safety of his heavily armored van
* street samurai, who was strong and fast and a good shot, but not as powerful as a spirit and couldn't bring as many guns along as the army of drones
* Sam Spade, an unaugmented human who had a gun and knew some guys

doesn't work really well. The mages are clearly too powerful, the rigger tends to overshadow the street samurai, and the unaugmented human is left in the dust. There's space for unaugmented humans in a magic + cyberpunk game, but either the mages and augmented humans have to be very restricted in scope, or the unaugmented human needs to be Batman: smart, extremely capable, and blessed with narrative serendipity.

One of the great things about GURPS is that if you use CP correctly, it should be more obvious when things are out of whack. But I think it helps if you have a good and honest view of character roles and concepts to start.

[DAT]

Originally Posted by Refplace

I recommend Pyramid 3/21 over 3e Cyberpunk.
Its built more along the lines of Action! and is better suited to a decker working alongside other characters rather than hacking as its own minigame.
For magic I first have a question/observation.
Is cybertech going to cost points or just money?
* If points then I suggest a Powers based system like Sorcery or a modified Divine Favor for balance. That also works well with your warriors if they have cinematic advantages.
* If cybernetics just cost money then a non powers based method would likely be more fair.

Thank-you! I had totally missed that Pyramid.

I was going to charge both, points and money for 'ware.

Powers seems to be the way to go for Spell casters.

[DAT]

First, thank you fo the detailed reply.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I'd definitely recommend that deckers should have to buy computers to do most of their work. A basic one (a Small TL 9 one, for instance) is well within the budget of even struggling or poor characters, but there's plenty of room there for expansion and upgrades, both of the basic hardware, and the software. In my experience with Shadowrun, decker characters are some of the most interested in the "upgrade game".

I'm thinking TL8 poor, TL9 normal, TL10 good decks are around.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I'd absolutely concur with Refplace here - use the rules from Pyramid.

Yes, I will be using this article.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I'd do them as Allies, because I treat Riggers as having Possession with Puppets Only, and the drones thus have to be Allies to be Puppets. Since most drones will have low template costs, though (due to having limited or no IQ), I'd suggest using the rules for cheaper Allies if they're worth less than 25% of the character's total (Supers p. 68 or Zombies p. 27).

The van will be equipment, his flying machine-gun and rocket drones will be allies.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Sounds reasonable to me. Lots of shadowrunners probably start at lower-than-average Wealth, but conversely, many can justify getting the full 100% of starting funds available for adventuring gear, due to being unsettled wanderers.

A couple of them are thinking of reducing wealth.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

IIRC, the standard SR assumption as of 3rd Edition was that 1 nuyen = 2 American dollars as of when the book was published. That lines up pretty well with GURPS 4e's assumption that 1 GURPS dollar = 1 dollar as of GURPS 4e's publication in 2004. That's the conversion I'd use: 1 nuyen = 2 GURPS dollars.

Great. Thank-you.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

When I've run GURPS Shadowrun recently, I built the spellcasting characters using the Sorcery system. It's not a perfect fit for SR, but it does work, I feel. For one thing, it's decently balanced against other characters, since it's built on advantages, so there's fewer issues than with, say, the standard magic system, where spellcasters can pick up spells like Utter Dome.

It does provide more flexibility than rules-legal SR casters exhibit, since the Sorcery system technically allows casters to improvise a wide variety of cheap spells, or somewhat more expensive spells at a higher cost. But you could always tweak that, if you didn't like it.

Time to pull up GURPS Sorcery.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

There are some stats for a swarm of insects in Dungeon Fantasy 5: Allies (p. 9) that you could probably adapt into a rat swarm.

I'll go take a look.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I'd handle this by saying that for every [X] points a character takes in 'ware, they have to reduce their relevant Talent (Magery, Sorcery Talent, whatever) by 1 point. If they take limitations on it, they can keep using it, but otherwise, it's just lost. The number of points in cyber/bioware that would reduce the character's magic would be up to you - set it higher to allow more, lower for a more restrictive setup. So, for example, say you set it at 10 points in cyberware per point of magic. A mage with Magery 3 who got a cyberjack implanted (Telecommunication (Cable Jack) [5]) would have to reduce their highest level of Magery by 1 point. If they just let it happen, they'd lose their Magery, dropping to Magery 2. Instead, they could take a -10% limitation ("Must chant in a loud voice" for instance), to reduce its cost to only 9 points. Now, they still have Magery 3, but to access that highest level, they'd have to do a chant. Basically, this replicates the way SR mages can take bans, rituals, etc. on their Magic to mitigate the drawbacks of cyberware.

Still thinking this one. Doesn't look like I need to worry it to start, s characters don't have enough points to go crazy in both ... yet.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I'd build this as an Ally with the Special Abilities modifier, and the actual advantages being paid for by the technomancer character, with the -40% for "Granted by Familiar". Also, if the nano-swarm can only do one trick at a time, the abilities could probably also claim the 1/5th cost reduction for being Alternate Abilities of each other.

Good points on the build. Thank you.

[DAT]

Thank you for the detailed response.

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Another vote for Sorcery/Advantage based magic. Advantage based magic has the same costs as other systems and a much more limited set of spells, so you're less likely to discover after a few sessions that the mage can invade every other character's non-combat roles.

All advise is leaning to Sorcery/Advantage based, so that sounds like the way I start. I may try a couple builds and see.

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

I'm on record as thinking the shaman is not a very good template for DF, and having suggestions for improving them.
In Shadowrun, the basic shaman is somewhat more appropriate, but it still struggles to contribute if the team isn't facing non-corporeal spirits. It's not a very good match for Shadowrun style shamans - who are generalist magic users who summon a different set of semi-corporeal spirits than other mages.

It will now be more likely that the group will face spirit and elemental threats

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

In addition to the existing insect swarm ally from DF5: Allies, I would expect that spirit rats are incorporeal, and thus the exact details of their physical form is mostly a descriptive detail and not a mechanical effect. From the perspective of the troll samurai, whether the spirit in that hex has a single body that he can't affect or 4 dozen smaller bodies that he can't affect is not really that important.

Good point. However, the spirit might run into something on the astral plane when scouting.

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

I suggested in the previous thread that the Essence/Magic balancing act was a not very satisfactory outcome of Shadowrun's rules, and in GURPS, if you're paying CP for magic and CP for cyberware, then mixed wizards cyborgs are going to be inherently more balanced because a 300 CP street samurai, 300 CP mage, and 300 CP technomage all have 300 CP to spend on advantages.

If you really want to force the metal/magic divide, I again recommend letting people purchase an unlimited (within their point budget) amount of magic OR cyberware, but only a total of 50 (or 100, or whatever) CP if they want to have both. So a street samurai can be as metal as he want, and a pure mage as magic as he can afford, but a technomage is buying metal and magic from the same limited pool.

I'm leaning towards letting point limit things, and not worry about mix/matching. But the issue of Cyber vs Bio become less distinct. More to think about.

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Points. Put as much as possible on the same power schedule and you'll have less headaches down the road.

Need to do a couple sample characters and see.

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Make sure that all your character concepts are around the same conceptual power level. The SR1e thing where you had:
* shaman, who could use astral sight to see through any disguise, astral movement to scout ahead with less risk to himself, summoned spirit allies to provide heavy hitting combat power, summoned spirits to provide a wide variety of useful non-combat effects, and could cast some spells too
* hermetic mage, who could do most of the same things as the shaman, but with a slightly different set of trade-offs in how he summoned his spirits
* rigger, who could control an army of drones from the safety of his heavily armored van
* street samurai, who was strong and fast and a good shot, but not as powerful as a spirit and couldn't bring as many guns along as the army of drones
* Sam Spade, an unaugmented human who had a gun and knew some guys

doesn't work really well. The mages are clearly too powerful, the rigger tends to overshadow the street samurai, and the unaugmented human is left in the dust. There's space for unaugmented humans in a magic + cyberpunk game, but either the mages and augmented humans have to be very restricted in scope, or the unaugmented human needs to be Batman: smart, extremely capable, and blessed with narrative serendipity.

One of the great things about GURPS is that if you use CP correctly, it should be more obvious when things are out of whack. But I think it helps if you have a good and honest view of character roles and concepts to start.

Good point.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by DAT

T
Good point. However, the spirit might run into something on the astral plane when scouting.

I'd treat the physical appearance of two shadownrun spirits fighting on the astral plane as another descriptive detail. The swarm of rats shouldn't get any advantage in astral combat for having multiple bodies - but it also shouldn't be disadvantaged, or be charged CP.

Maybe you'd do it differently, but before I started worrying too much about how to implement a swarm of spirit rats, I'd check with the player to find out what mechanical effect he expected to have with a swarm of spirit rats.

[Extrarius]

Originally Posted by DAT

[...]
C. For the Human Technomancer –
Player had the idea for the PC to have a nano/micro machine swarm Allly that he wore, which allowed him to do his magic. It would provide his armor, allow his to do digital possession of computer systems, maybe have a surge attack, etc.[...]

I'd borrow ideas from the Avatar Last Airbender thread for this. I'd go with a set of advantages limited by gadget, including a small pool of cosmic modular ability points (unless his swarm is extremely limited in functionality, it can theoretically do almost anything over a small enough area). You might even borrow from the Sorcery, and let them buy the X most expensive abilities at full price (and the rest as alternate abilities) to have X active abilities at a time.
Is there a RAW limitation/rule for making "linked" gadgets that are stolen/damaged/etc as a unit?

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by DAT

First, thank you fo the detailed reply.

I'm thinking TL8 poor, TL9 normal, TL10 good decks are around.

Hmm. Personally, I wouldn't use different TL equipment. That's rather too much of a jump, I think. Instead, just use the existing computer quality modifiers. A "starter" cyberdeck, for example, one that used old tech and outdated software, probably counts as Slow, while a high-end deck would be Fast, and an absolutely bleeding-edge one would be Genius. Combine that with software that counts as Good-, Fine-, or Best-quality gear for various hacking tasks, and you'll have plenty of variation within the hacking tools, I'd say.