Off-hand weapon penalty

[JoelSammallahti]

I think the -4 for off-hand weapon use is way too heavy. I don't have any experience in weapon-based martial arts, but just swinging a stick around like a fool in my backyard, it doesn't feel like my left hand is that much clumsier than my right. Nor do I seem to be /that/ much worse banging nails with a hammer or whittling a piece of wood with a knife when I switch to my left.

I've browsed a bit of the literature on the matter, and it looks like the difference in performance between the dominant and the nondominant hand is less than a standard deviation on standardized tests of manual dexterity. Now, so far as I know there's no ruling on what the distribution of attribute scores should be in normal humans, but one sd in DX is certainly no more than 3, and maybe less than 2. Based on that, I'd put the off-hand penalty at around -2, to represent raw reduced motor control /and/ some degree of effect from having less practice.

How about people who do fool around with weapons, what can you tell me? If you shoot a pistol with your left hand, how much bigger is your dispersal? -4 would mean your target needs to be five times bigger across for you to hit, and that sounds like a lot to me, but I have no experience with guns at all. What about martial artists, how much more difficult is it to handle something with your left hand?

[Flyndaran]

My right hand has stabbed my left almost like "alien hand syndrome". I cannot hold anything in righty safely unless I devote significant concentration to it.

It sounds like you're just ambidextrous.

Handedness isn't always as extreme as mine or as "weak" as yours, but games have to draw the line somewhere. But I agree -4 seems like my level and not quite what I would call average.

[Tomsdad]

What gets more complicated here is in RL not only is individual handedness on a sliding scale rather than -4 or ambidextrous, but what your actually doing with your off hand matters as well!*

Thing since GURPS whet from a Technique that progressively reduced off hand penalties to a 1pt perk you lost the gradation (I still like the change though)

Personally if I really want to model a range of effects I'd bring in unusual background cost for off hand training perks for certain activities, and maybe quirks/disad like "extreme handed-ness, off hand perks cost double"



*I can drum and punch with my left hand better than I can write with it, and well some activities are inherently two handed!

[Maz]

You could just change ambidextrous to be a leveled ad costing 2pts for first level and 1 for the rest, total of 5 pts to buy off -4 penalty. (Yes I am aware I essentially made it into a Hard technique)

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Maz

You could just change ambidextrous to be a leveled ad costing 2pts for first level and 1 for the rest, total of 5 pts to buy off -4 penalty. (Yes I am aware I essentially made it into a Hard technique)

Seems a good compromise point between the original system and the MA option

[AlexanderHowl]

There are a number of way to produce gradiation, but GURPS presents an acceptable compromise. Now, swinging a stick around is nothing like actually training to use a weapon, and anyone who learns to use pistols or swords will usually figure out that they have multiple dominants (dominant eye, dominant hand, and dominant foot). In my experience, I can fire pistols equally well with either hand, but I cannot sight equally well with either eye or step off equally well with either leg during practice combat (I cannot fence equally well with both hands though).

[JazzJedi]

Originally Posted by JoelSammallahti

I think the -4 for off-hand weapon use is way too heavy. I don't have any experience in weapon-based martial arts, but just swinging a stick around like a fool in my backyard, it doesn't feel like my left hand is that much clumsier than my right. Nor do I seem to be /that/ much worse banging nails with a hammer or whittling a piece of wood with a knife when I switch to my left.

I've browsed a bit of the literature on the matter, and it looks like the difference in performance between the dominant and the nondominant hand is less than a standard deviation on standardized tests of manual dexterity. Now, so far as I know there's no ruling on what the distribution of attribute scores should be in normal humans, but one sd in DX is certainly no more than 3, and maybe less than 2. Based on that, I'd put the off-hand penalty at around -2, to represent raw reduced motor control /and/ some degree of effect from having less practice.

How about people who do fool around with weapons, what can you tell me? If you shoot a pistol with your left hand, how much bigger is your dispersal? -4 would mean your target needs to be five times bigger across for you to hit, and that sounds like a lot to me, but I have no experience with guns at all. What about martial artists, how much more difficult is it to handle something with your left hand?

I've felt the same way, and I use a default -2 off-hand penalty.

[mhd]

It depends on what you're doing with your off hand. For trivial tasks, you wouldn't even notice a -4 penalty, as you're going to succeed with either. Swinging sticks around being one such thing. Let's not forget that most task we perform aren't under combat conditions, and thus would get a HUGE bonus in GURPS (probably starting at +5, potentially going even higher, considering how much we're doing is sadly close enough to Chaplin's Modern Times).

For some skills, there's no built-in penalty anyway, because you learn to do it with both hands, most unarmed skills being prime examples, never mind shields. Or writing, painting etc.

But for skills where muscle memory is a huge issue, it's not (just) about the hand being less dexterous, but about what you're used to do with it. And for a lot of fighting skills, this definitely applies. You're just not used to performing your drills with your other hand. The penalty also matches the +4 you get for a telegraphic attack, which is the other extreme of muscle memory and trained movements.

If you're training with both hands regularly, that's the appropriate perk. Some people might have a talent for performing /some/ tasks with either hand and thus might not need to train for said perk.

Sure, some people are "not as bad" at some tasks with either hand, but that's a bit below the resolution of GURPS.

If I would desire alternate rules, heck, I'd ditch the whole concept wholesale and consider off-handed use yet another familiarity penalty.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by JoelSammallahti

How about people who do fool around with weapons, what can you tell me?

-4 feels right to me.

If you shoot a pistol with your left hand, how much bigger is your dispersal? -4 would mean your target needs to be five times bigger across for you to hit, and that sounds like a lot to me, but I have no experience with guns at all.

I don't shoot guns, but I do archery and throw darts. -4 feels almost right to me. With archery it's a bit worse as my left arm is weaker meaning the bow wobbles a bit with a recurve (it's fine with my compound once past the breakpoint however).

What about martial artists, how much more difficult is it to handle something with your left hand?

It's clumsier. I've trained a bit with dual wielding (only a little bit) and -4 feels close enough to right.


Keep in mind for a lot of these 'routine' things you're getting a hefty "not in combat bonus". For instance write with your dominant hand, then write with your non dominant hand. How much longer does it take to make it look the same? Now apply that as a 'Taking Extra Time" bonus...


For example I can one handed type pretty effectively with my left (undominant) due to years of using the mouse with the right hand and typing with the left. I can type even faster with both hands. But if I switch to trying to right hand type and mouse with the left? Terrible. Slow, I keep having to remember that the mouse buttons are "backwards", etc.

[Flyndaran]

There's also the issue that I'm not just horrible with my right hand because its coordination sucks, but also because I don't train with it.
If I learned to sword fight, I would learn with my left. Translating/mirroring that knowledge to my right would add a second handicap to its effective Skill level.