Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?

[kirbwarrior]

Just as practice (and to help reason my brain with this thread), let's toss N/A on some attributes and see what we get.

HP - Can't be hurt. Has nothing to hurt. Has no mass to speak of. Seems more insubstantial than Insubstantiality. Seems munchkiny
ST w/o HP - Can't apply ST to any situation, but also cannot have ST applied to it. The 'Immovable object'. If it can somehow move (considering that air pressure and body weight don't stop a ST0 person from moving), then anything can get in it's way.
DX - Can't move. At all. But nothing can restrain it either. Seems... bad.
IQ - Doesn't think. Can't be reasoned with. Has no volition. Sounds like IQ 0. Then again, IQ 6 and 1 are special breakpoints, and I'm pretty sure apply when temporarily changing them with Affliction (so you can make average joe incapable of language with an IQ-5 ray)
Will - Can't apply Will to any situation (basically, can't use Will-based skills), and has no stat to roll against, thus immune to effects that require Will roll. Seems to be a big issue here, I would just give the Immunity (Resistant) to Will-based rolls [30] for simplicity (don't know if buying will down to 0 is kosher with that)
Per - Can't notice things. Also auto-resists any thing wanting a Per roll.
HT - Same as last 2. Also can make FP N/A. MAkes immune to HT rolls, such as unconcsious, death checks, etc. Seems to include Unkillible 1.

Am I missing anything?

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Just as practice (and to help reason my brain with this thread), let's toss N/A on some attributes and see what we get.

HP - Can't be hurt. Has nothing to hurt. Has no mass to speak of. Seems more insubstantial than Insubstantiality. Seems munchkiny
ST w/o HP - Can't apply ST to any situation, but also cannot have ST applied to it. The 'Immovable object'. If it can somehow move (considering that air pressure and body weight don't stop a ST0 person from moving), then anything can get in it's way.
...
Am I missing anything?

Just replying to the bits I can OTTOMH.
Hmm... Speed and Move, I guess. Fat N/A I suppose you left out because of the explanation in Basic.
ST and HP might necessitate one another. I'm having trouble imagining how one could have a positive rating, while the other was zero or N/A. Your envisioning of N/A HP matches what I figured it would be like. This would be like a classic ghost that can neither affect, nor be affected by, the material world.

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

If I have one car built say on 200 points, that has IQ N/A, then why am I paying the same for the Ally advantage as the same car but with IQ 10?

If you read the link, PK covers that!
The drawback of lacking a conscious mind is offset by the complete immunity to mind control, possession, etc. Even Cybernetic abilities cannot affect it, as there is no AI or computer mind to affect.
Your IQ10 car has a computer mind which can be controlled, (as would an IQ0 Car). The IQ N/A car cannot be remote controlled!

[vicky_molokh]

So get an IQ8 one with Immunity against it, representing SotA defences.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

So get an IQ8 one with Immunity against it, representing SotA defences.

Yeah, I guess with Immunity to X being typically 30 points (unless X is broad enough to require multiple immunities), there's not much need for a trait that's basically "Attribute 0 (or worse) + Immunity to X".

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Yeah, I guess with Immunity to X being typically 30 points (unless X is broad enough to require multiple immunities), there's not much need for a trait that's basically "Attribute 0 (or worse) + Immunity to X".

For player characters, probably not. For certain types of NPC's, or for actual objects, I think there's still some potential value in it.

[munin]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

... For certain types of NPC's, or for actual objects, I think there's still some potential value in it.

For example, the Horrid Skull (DFM1, p. 19) has DX N/A and Speed N/A, because it never moves. It's "...more artifact than monster...", but still it makes sense to give it a monster write-up with various N/As rather than describe it like an object.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by SCAR

If you read the link, PK covers that!

I have read it. I don't agree with it.

The drawback of lacking a conscious mind is offset by the complete immunity to mind control, possession, etc. Even Cybernetic abilities cannot affect it, as there is no AI or computer mind to affect.
Your IQ10 car has a computer mind which can be controlled, (as would an IQ0 Car). The IQ N/A car cannot be remote controlled!

The fact that your ally has a sort of Immunity to Mind Control for "free" isn't worth as much as the fact that it has absolutely no independent volition and requires either that it has additional advantages (CM Controls) or that you do (Possession).
Besides it's not immune to Possession with the right modifiers or any kind of ability that specifically is intended to control machines.
I'm running a game with a PC that has a non-sentient vehicular ally, with IQ 0 and it's not free points.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I have read it. I don't agree with it.
The fact that your ally has a sort of Immunity to Mind Control for "free" isn't worth as much as the fact that it has absolutely know independent volition and requires either that it has additional advantages (CM Controls) or that you do (Possession).
Besides it's not immune to Possession with the right modifiers or any kind of ability that specifically is intended to control machines.
I'm running a game with a PC that has a non-sentient vehicular ally, with IQ 0 and it's not free points.

Well-noted.

Indeed, if it's truly 'uncontrollable', then it is a rock or an item with no moving parts, which doesn't care about being controlled (because even if it had a mind of its own, it has neither senses nor ability to do anything). If it is a car, then sure it can be controlled, just not by Digital-Cybernetic control - a simpler one will do.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I have read it. I don't agree with it.
The fact that your ally has a sort of Immunity to Mind Control for "free" isn't worth as much as the fact that it has absolutely no independent volition and requires either that it has additional advantages (CM Controls) or that you do (Possession).
Besides it's not immune to Possession with the right modifiers or any kind of ability that specifically is intended to control machines.
I'm running a game with a PC that has a non-sentient vehicular ally, with IQ 0 and it's not free points.

Well it looks like it should be immune to straight Possession, although maybe I'm overlooking an obvious justification. Combining it with TK (Animation), or something like that, will work.

Neither here nor there, but I've long argued that non-sentients should be gadgets or gear instead of Allies.