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Old 01-19-2018, 03:55 AM   #41
Alonsua
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Default Re: Companies Finance

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I would need to see the actual series of transactions and the rolls that permit them.
Formula used:
(current assets*(1+(resource value/current assets)/12)^12-payments

Convention:
The skill is at 24, and the company rolls at +2 (help or group effort, whatever we call it) +4 (equipment) but only to determine success probabilities, so maximum resource value, for a relative of 16 = ((24-10)*0.05+1)*0.06 = 10.2% of assets/year

First loan payments, if taken for five years:
5700/5+5700*0.02 = 1,254 millions

Procedure (rounded to millions)

First year results
(5,700*(1+(0.102)/12)^12-1,254 = 5,055
Second year results
(5,055*(1+(0.102)/12)^12-1,254 = 4,341
Third year results
(4,341*(1+(0.102)/12)^12-1254 = 3,551
Fourth year results
(3,551*(1+(0.102)/12)^12-1254 = 2,677
Fifth year results
(2,677*(1+(0.102)/12)^12-1254 = 1,709 (Debt is $0 at this point)

New loan
1,709*0.102/12*10,000 = 145,265

And the same thing goes on and on

*I dont know if it is even fair and intended that the bonuses do not apply when determining the maximum loan (but if they do, then we are looking at monthly income x1,000,000 instead of monthly income x10,000), but I guess some kind of modifiers are allowed, even if only "Reputation" and "Networked" (as mentioned in Social Engineering and which gives the same +2 +4 in the end... say the company looks for "venture" for an extra -3, and you still roll at 12 when looking for income x100,000).

*The main problem with it is that in the long term it is exponential.

Last edited by Alonsua; 01-19-2018 at 04:52 AM.
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Old 01-19-2018, 04:02 AM   #42
Alonsua
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Default Re: Companies Finance

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
It is all handwavium anyway because you are talking about market distorting levels of debt. $800 billion is the debt of entire industries in the USA, so you are probably looking at having the federal government cosign your loans in order to get that much debt. Anyway, 6% interest is unrealistically high in the current monetary climate, where corporate bonds pay less than 2% (just issue bonds and don't bother with the loans).
Yes, and this makes it worse because it becomes much easier to turn profits
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Old 01-19-2018, 04:23 AM   #43
Alonsua
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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
It is all handwavium anyway because you are talking about market distorting levels of debt. $800 billion is the debt of entire industries in the USA, so you are probably looking at having the federal government cosign your loans in order to get that much debt. Anyway, 6% interest is unrealistically high in the current monetary climate, where corporate bonds pay less than 2% (just issue bonds and don't bother with the loans).
Yes, we would need a convention such as "200+ billions rolls at impossible difficulty (-10)" or something like that
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Old 01-19-2018, 06:41 AM   #44
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In addition, the executive officers of such an enterprise are expecting to divide around 1% of the gross revenues of the corporation as their compensation (with the CEO getting 50% of the compensation). If the company possesses revenues of $800 billion a year, the CEO will arrange to get compensation of $4 billion per year from the Board (at least in the USA). And most companies generate revenues in excess of 10% of their assets (for example, Nintendo benefitted from a return of 35% in 2017 while Apple benefitted from a return of 60% in 2017).
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Old 01-19-2018, 07:12 AM   #45
Alonsua
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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
In addition, the executive officers of such an enterprise are expecting to divide around 1% of the gross revenues of the corporation as their compensation (with the CEO getting 50% of the compensation). If the company possesses revenues of $800 billion a year, the CEO will arrange to get compensation of $4 billion per year from the Board (at least in the USA). And most companies generate revenues in excess of 10% of their assets (for example, Nintendo benefitted from a return of 35% in 2017 while Apple benefitted from a return of 60% in 2017).
Those are not revenues, those are supposed to be net profits, I guess. They are called "Resource Value" in Boardroom and Curia, and is what I used to calculate the company yearly growth (not including loans/capital increases).
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Old 01-19-2018, 07:47 AM   #46
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Companies Finance

Very different terms are being used here, and very different numbers (albeit very big ones) are being attached to them.

Asset turn over ratio is more about what sector your in.

IME when looking at growth year on year that tends to be looking at turnover or revenue, rather than profit (although you could look at net profit YOY, but net profit tends to be the results of several discussions about how you want to show things in your books as well as income and costs)

Last edited by Tomsdad; 01-19-2018 at 08:05 AM.
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Old 01-19-2018, 07:53 AM   #47
Alonsua
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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Very different terms are being used here, and very different numbers (albeit very big ones) are being attached to them.

Asset turn over ratio is more about what sector your in.
So far I do not know of any GURPS rules standing for "sectors" or anything like that
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Old 01-19-2018, 08:04 AM   #48
Tomsdad
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonsua View Post
So far I do not know of any GURPS rules standing for "sectors" or anything like that
TBF I think the kind of analysis that in RL would go along with loans of $800bn is just somewhat outside the scope of an RPG supplement (even one from a system as meticulous and well researched as GURPS! ;-)).


I've kind of lost track of what values are what in this thread, so to recap what is the annual turnover you have in mind for this company?

Last edited by Tomsdad; 01-19-2018 at 08:10 AM.
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Old 01-19-2018, 08:24 AM   #49
Alonsua
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
TBF I think the kind of analysis that in RL would go along with loans of $800bn is just somewhat outside the scope of an RPG supplement (even one from a system as meticulous and well researched as GURPS! ;-)).


I've kind of lost track of what values are what in this thread, so to recap what is the annual turnover you have in mind for this company?
I dont have any in mind, I need a system to calculate it over the course of 28 years, which is related to some kind of abilities or skills such as Finance, Reputation, Equipment, starting Wealth, etc. :S

*Problem is that as is by Social Engineering a skill of 22 would be able to raise monthly income x100,000 (counting only on current income it would take over eight milleniums to pay that), on top of that you got "bonds" going at 2% (per the thread) yearly with net profits of 9.6%-11.4%/assets a year.

Last edited by Alonsua; 01-19-2018 at 08:31 AM.
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Old 01-19-2018, 08:26 AM   #50
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Companies Finance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonsua View Post
So far I do not know of any GURPS rules standing for "sectors" or anything like that
No, and that's because GURPS isn't a comprehensive reality modeling game, and particularly isn't an economic modeling game. Trying to use it for that purpose is bound to produce unrealistic results. GURPS rules are intended to be "good enough for gaming use," and not many people want to roleplay financial titans who spend their game sessions creating new industries.

If you want a realistic economic background, I recommend forgetting the GURPS rules and doing economic modeling to produce what you want for your campaign, and only then figuring out what GURPS character traits or organizational traits accurately describe the outcomes.
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