Weapon Master + Jack of All Trades?

[Calvin]

So Weapon Master brings up all your defaults to DX-1, DX-2, and DX-3.

Jack of All Trades can bring your defaults up by between 1 and 3, and you could potentially axe the HT, ST, and IQ parts of Jack of All Trades and keep only the DX portion for 4pts per level. (Jack of All Weapons?)

Maybe it's a little silly, but couldn't you use this to build a character that can pick up any weapon and use it at full DX?

The only issue I see is that you waste the damage bonus that comes from having the skill at DX+1 or DX+2. I suppose you could pay the points to get to those skill break points, but that does make the Jack of All Trades portion a little redundant.

That does raise a question though, how much would a limitation on Weapon Master be worth if it removed the damage bonus portion?

[David Johnston2]

No, you can't. Jack of All Trades doesn't synergize with anything except high stats.

[Calvin]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

No, you can't. Jack of All Trades doesn't synergize with anything except high stats.

What do you mean? That the two can't stack? As far as I can tell Weapon Master _sets_ it to a specific value, and Jack of All Trades just adds to whatever that value is.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Calvin

What do you mean? That the two can't stack?

I was prepared to make that argument, but then I read Jack of All Trades from Power-Ups 3: Talents. And it doesn't say what I remember it saying, so I begin to go through my 3e collection to find where it came into GURPS and it looks like it wasn't in the Compendium, but I managed to find it in the GURPS Traveller main book. The wording in that book is quite similar to to the one from Power-Ups 3, but it included an additional clause:

"It has no effect on skills without a default, and modified default level may never equal or exceed the level that 1/2 point would purchase."

It seems that the 4e version is a bit more forgiving, and I see no reason rules-wise why it wouldn't affect the more lenient skill defaults offered by Weapon Master. I certainly wouldn't allow a character to get the damage bonus without spending points on the skill, and there's no way I would allow for the "DX only" version of Jack of All Trades you suggest - it's just too much munchkin bait. It's a package deal, if you want it then buy the package.

[Crystalline_Entity]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

I was prepared to make that argument, but then I read Jack of All Trades from Power-Ups 3: Talents. And it doesn't say what I remember it saying,

I've just found this too; I'm sure there was a rule that effectively said "your default in a skill must be less than its value if you'd spent [1] point in it", but I can't find that. I remember finding this typically affected skills such as Piloting which are DX skills but default from IQ, so a high IQ character with lower DX might fall foul of such a rule. But I can't find that rule now. Hmmm.

[Calvin]

There is still the question of why you'd ever make such a character though. In 90% of cases you'd be better off going for the 1/2 weapon version of weapon master and dropping Jack of All Trades entirely.

It is cool in theory though, actually being able to pick up any weapon and use it pretty effectively.

[Tigrah2k]

If I may, which book in 4e does Jack of all Trades come from? I don't seem to have that in my current loaded list for GCA, and would like to check it out.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Crystalline_Entity

I've just found this too; I'm sure there was a rule that effectively said "your default in a skill must be less than its value if you'd spent [1] point in it", but I can't find that.

That's because that line is in Dabbler.


Dabbler and JoAT mix oddly. Be wary.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Tigrah2k

If I may, which book in 4e does Jack of all Trades come from? I don't seem to have that in my current loaded list for GCA, and would like to check it out.

Power-Ups 3: Talents. But in GCA it doesn't really do anything because the program has no way of giving a skill bonus to "all skills excluding skills with points in them and only when they are defaulting to an attribute," so it gives a conditional bonus to all attributes "when making default skill rolls."

Note that you can add the modifier "Gives skill bonus to skill" to give a skill bonus to a specific skill you want to add to the character at default level.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Tigrah2k

If I may, which book in 4e does Jack of all Trades come from? I don't seem to have that in my current loaded list for GCA, and would like to check it out.

Dungeon Fantasy 11, and a power-up for Innkeepers. Originally it entered GURPS 3e for the Traveller conversion - as a (I think largely unsuccessful) attempt to convert the Traveller skill of the same name. I dunno if Loren Wiseman (who co-wrote both DF Taverns and Traveller) had a hand in including it in DF 11 or not.

I'd actually say it's build on DF 11 p.28 highlights what is wrong with it - calling "only for defaults" a -80% limitation on attributes, and a maxed out limitation is pretty clearly too much of a discount for anything you use very much - and if you are going to allow it anyway solves a lot of issues about stacking - of *course* attribute bonuses stack with most things.

Edit: If you must have JoAT, I personally prefer 1 point of Cosmic Modular Abilities (only for skills you don't already have points in), which is usually better, both cheaper [9 or so], and gives you better skills (it's no longer a *default*, though admittedly most GMs are softer than I would be on allowing anything you can do with the actual skill with defaults so that matters less for their games.)