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Old 02-26-2021, 02:07 PM   #11
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Crime and Punishment for AIs

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I mean, the most successful serial killers tend not to target people close to home, so it is not impossible that the jurisdiction would not realize that a particular ghost is a serial killer. A ghost could travel to another jurisdiction, kidnap someone, transform them into a bioshell, and then copy themselves into the bioshell. The original returns to their home jurisdiction while the copy starts to commit the crimes, programmed to send copies of their memories to the original. The original never kills in their home jurisdiction, and they would not 'seed' another copy until the copies (and the copy's copies, and so on) are hunted down.
There are two basic problems with this. The first is, 'unleashing killer AIs' is presumably also a felony that authorities would be interested in following up on. The second is, actual serial killers (as opposed to terrorists) tend to enjoy the experience of killing people, which is lost if you use a xox.

In general, copying around malignant AIs of various types is a legitimate area of legal concern, but there's really no reason to use a xox -- it's likely to be bloated compared to a more focused AI (making it much easier to detect and remove) and provide large amounts of forensic evidence for figuring out where it came from.
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Old 02-26-2021, 05:54 PM   #12
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Crime and Punishment for AIs

Memory editing and merging is an established part of transhuman fiction, so I am not quite sure why the original could not experience everything their copies did. Anyway, the original could experience the actions of the copies through sensies, meaning that they could experience hundreds of new victims every year without having to do anything beyond the initial seeding.

It really does not terribly matter if releasing killer ghosts is illegal, you have to find the offender first. For example, a ghost that lives in Islandia could easily travel to the USA annually for business, kidnap someone and convert them into a bioshell, and then implant a modified copy of themselves onto the new bioshell. If the serial killer owns a bushbot, they can even brainpeel their victim so that their copy gains access to the host's memories through brain hacking.

After the original leaves, the copy proceeds to live the life of the host while scouting out victims. When they find an appropriate victim, they covert their victim and copy themselves before indulging in murder. During their activities, they would send sensies to the original, who could experience them and sell them on the dark web. If it looked like they would get caught, the copy would commit suicide in a glorious baptism of blood and fire, with the full knowledge that they will live on in the original and their copy.
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Old 02-26-2021, 08:50 PM   #13
TGLS
 
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Default Re: Crime and Punishment for AIs

Why bother with all this trouble when you could just go somewhere Bioroids are considered chattel and get your jollies there? Besides that, doesn't THS have the memetics to detect and treat psychopaths? Besides both, eventually value drift or bad luck will result in the capture of one of the copies, who could be edited or coerced into giving up the central character in this mess.
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Old 02-27-2021, 12:01 AM   #14
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Crime and Punishment for AIs

Most serial killers rarely kill because they think that murder is fun, it is more that they do it because taking lives are the ultimate exercise of power. To many of them, killing a bioroid would likely be seen as a fairly pathetic exercise of power, much like killing an animal, so they would want proper targets. They would want people, though they might practice on bioroids if they get bored.

As for getting caught, why would the copies care? They would go out in a blaze of suicidal glory rather than get caught, killing as many people as they can before their destruction, because they would know that they would live on as the original and the other copies. I doubt that they would fear destruction because it would only be the end of that instance, as the continued existence of the original would guarantee their immortality. I would not be surprised if they have thermite surrounding their computer cores, so they could literally go out in a blaze of glory, destroying any forensic data.
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Old 02-27-2021, 08:44 AM   #15
Verjigorm
 
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Default Re: Crime and Punishment for AIs

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.....and you think they're pro-serial killer? If those off-Earth jurisdictions think that's what they want they can just get cut off from Earthnet and the Earth won't even notice.
I mean, the Red Trojans will literally supply engineered viruses and nuclear bombs to people. What's renting serve space for a psychosomatic AI/Ghost/Xox? In fact, isn't there a villain in THS, Dr. Maria Omikage, who xox's herself and keeps showing up doing horrible Island of Dr. Moreau things, despite the efforts of civilized society in quashing her?

And this is of course assuming that EarthNet can just "pull the plug". Like, first, the TSA is out there, eagerly committing IP theft and thumbing it's nose at the patent laws of the western powers and China. So our fictional KillerAI could lease server time at the TSA, and then use a tight beam upload to an orbital data-haven, maybe one associated with trojans. "snuff films", sensies of the kills could be distributed underground in 4th and 5th wave societies the way similar snuff porn and..worse, child porn, gets shared around in our society. These sensies could even include malicious programs that could downlink from one of those data havens, allowing the AI to spread itself through them.

I don't the fourth and fifth wave are going to just be like: "Oh, yeah, let's just not worry about it", I just think it's far more likely to be a complicated and difficult thing to just get rid of, similar to modern domestic terrorism or human trafficking. And with the mobility of a digital mind in THS, it could be very hard to chase down every bit of a malicious intelligence.
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Old 02-27-2021, 11:38 AM   #16
AlexanderHowl
 
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This becomes even more complicated in jurisdictions where ghosts are legal persons, like the USA, as they cannot just erase a detained ghost unless they know that it is not the original. Even if they could capture the original, the original would affirm their constitutional rights, including their right to counsel, and any good defense attorney would likely shred any case brought against them when the 'real' perpetrator (a copy) continues to commit crimes while the original is in custody.
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Old 02-27-2021, 12:02 PM   #17
TGLS
 
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Default Re: Crime and Punishment for AIs

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As for getting caught, why would the copies care? ... because they would know that they would live on as the original and the other copies.
That's where value drift comes into this. The "copies of you are also you" meme seems like it would break easily, especially to psychopath who goes around murdering people for funzies. Once the "copies" meme is broken moping up at least a section of the network becomes more doable. With sophisticated weaponized memetics of THS, spreading "anti-copies of you" memes around is probably a key part of xox-hunting campaigns.

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Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
Like, first, the TSA is out there, eagerly committing IP theft and thumbing it's nose at the patent laws of the western powers and China.
The TSA isn't a rogue state like the Trojan Mafia. They still get invited to the international conventions and there's apparently enough trade between the rest of the world and the TSA to make Singapore relevant. When the Pacific War happened, the rest of the world decided to stay out of it, instead of jumping on a rogue state that allows all kinds of hooliganism.

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Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
"snuff films", sensies of the kills could be distributed underground in 4th and 5th wave societies the way similar snuff porn and..worse, child porn, gets shared around in our society. These sensies could even include malicious programs that could downlink from one of those data havens, allowing the AI to spread itself through them.
And at the same time, legal and similar content could be produced using bioroids. Legal channels will have advantages over the dubious illegal channels where you might get transformed into a killing machine by rogue AI.


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Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
In fact, isn't there a villain in THS, Dr. Maria Omikage, who xox's herself and keeps showing up doing horrible Island of Dr. Moreau things, despite the efforts of civilized society in quashing her?
Yeah, there is. The important difference is that Omakage lives and operates in asteroid belt, a mostly ungoverned region, and KillerAI appears to be intended to operate on Earth.

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Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
I don't the fourth and fifth wave are going to just be like: "Oh, yeah, let's just not worry about it", I just think it's far more likely to be a complicated and difficult thing to just get rid of, similar to modern domestic terrorism or human trafficking. And with the mobility of a digital mind in THS, it could be very hard to chase down every bit of a malicious intelligence.
Sure, it's probably something that the THS FBI and analogues spend a great deal of time worrying about. On the other hand:
-> None of this is cheap.
-> Constructed AI have guard rails that give them GURPS Honest, which would be pretty hard to make a serial killer out of.
-> THS as a whole is such a psychiatric society most people don't have mental disadvantages anymore

Anything like this has to be rather deliberately created (putting it into the realm of terrorism) or a ridiculous fluke (it's hard to imagine anyone could get enough resources together while having an untreated diseased mind).
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Old 02-27-2021, 02:34 PM   #18
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Crime and Punishment for AIs

Serial killers do not necessarily suffer from mental disadvantages in the way that THS defines them. A character without any disadvantages is capable of being a serial killer without any issues, they just do not suffer from many of the compulsion that we find in most serial killers that are caught by contemporary society. There is nothing that prevents such a character from turning an innocent into hamburger and using them as food, it is just that they do not have a compulsion to do so.
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