Combat Reflexes cost vs Enhanced Dodge cost

[Pip Boy]

I got a question on Enhanced Dodge and Combat Reflexes. I guess its costs are a little off, no matter the case.

You see... Enhanced Dodge costs the same as Combat Reflexes, without the latter other bonuses. CR allows a +1 on ALL active defenses -- not to mention other things, like the +2 to Fright Checks, for instance -- while ED gives a +1 only to Dodge.

And then again, I guess one could buy increased Basic Speed at 20 cp per +1, and decreased Move at -5cp per -1. Combined, they are the same price and more benefit than Enhanced Dodge. So, again, WHY buy Enhanced Dodge?

So, either ED is to expensive, or CR is too cheap.

And YES, I've searched other threads on the forum, but none could explain WHY this happens or give me any kind of satisfaction tweaking on that -- not to say that the latest thread on this was about mid-2006! We have a lot more material now.

What I mean is I don't want to say to every character "By the way don't buy enhanced dodge unless you're going to buy combat reflexes first." Kromm said that, but I don't buy it. Why? The way I see it, ED it isn't some form of "Enhanced Combat Reflexes" (if I had to guess, I'd say Enhanced Time Sense is more like this).


Your thoughts, hive mind?

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by Pip Boy

What I mean is I don't want to say to every character "By the way don't buy enhanced dodge unless you're going to buy combat reflexes first." Kromm said that, but I don't buy it.

That's the official explanation and is the only possible one... Combat Reflexes is a "realistic" advantage, that most fighters will choose, while Enhanced Dodge is a cinematic one, and it is a good deal ONLY if you already have Combat Reflexes.
From a purely "effectiveness" perspective, CR is underpriced and/or ED is overpriced.

Note, however, that if ED were cheaper (e.g., 10 points), it would be too good, because it's leveled and stackable. If you want to allow only a single level, and says that Enhanced Dodge can't be stacked with Combat Reflexes, then go and make it 10 points instead of 15.
But if you allow it to be stacked with CR, then it should cost 15, as IMHO 25 points is too cheap for +2 Dodge and +1 to Parry/Block.

OR, you could make Combat Reflexes cost 20 if you don't want it to be the "standard warrior advantage" and want to make more comparable with Enhanced defenses. There are many advantages that would probably still be a good deal, even if they costed 5 points more (High Pain threshold, Luck).

IMHO both approaches aren't unbalancing, you just have to choose the one that best suits your tastes.

About Extra Speed and -1 Mov: note that the -1 to Mov, by RAW, counts against the disad limit. So, assuming that all PCs take all the disads they can (as is typically the case in GURPS), picking +1 to Extra Speed will effectively cost 20 points, not 15.

Of course, buying full extra speed +1 (without the -1 to Mov) for 20 points could be still be considered a better deal than Enhanced Dodge (+1 to mov is always useful!). If you feel that way, you should encourage your players to buy extra Speed instead of ED.

[Xplo]

IIRC, CR is deliberately underpriced.

[chris1982]

The big difference between the two is that you can only take combat reflexes once, and an additional point to dodge is even more expensive...

Sure, every fighter char that doesn't get Combat Reflexes is inefficient... CR is worth easily 30 points...

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Xplo

IIRC, CR is deliberately underpriced.

Yes. CR is cheap; ED is about right. We know. We don't care. We did this on purpose so that starting PCs could cheaply acquire good defenses and not die all the time.

[roguebfl]

There also the fact, Enhanced Dodge (and it parry and block equivalent) are also designed to take Modifiers, including Power modifiers, that cn make them cheaper and customized for specific tasks

[The Whiner Knight]

For myself, I am not inclined to look a gift horse in the mouth.

We also have to consider that Dodge is the only active defense you can use as much as you need to. As I recall, you can only Parry or Block one attack each per turn, unless you have taken certain skills or advantages.

So I think 15 points for +1 Dodge is a pretty good break. How many other numbers on your character sheet can you roll against until the cows come home in combat time?

TWK

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Pip Boy

I got a question on Enhanced Dodge and Combat Reflexes. I guess its costs are a little off, no matter the case.

You see... Enhanced Dodge costs the same as Combat Reflexes, without the latter other bonuses. CR allows a +1 on ALL active defenses -- not to mention other things, like the +2 to Fright Checks, for instance -- while ED gives a +1 only to Dodge.

And then again, I guess one could buy increased Basic Speed at 20 cp per +1, and decreased Move at -5cp per -1. Combined, they are the same price and more benefit than Enhanced Dodge. So, again, WHY buy Enhanced Dodge?

So, either ED is to expensive, or CR is too cheap.

CR is to cheap, but most any character with ED is going to have CR too. So view CR as a prerequisite for ED.

[transmetahuman]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

CR is to cheap, but most any character with ED is going to have CR too. So view CR as a prerequisite for ED.

I think Pip Boy was objecting to exactly that - what if your enhanced defenses come from guardian spirits, or probability manipulation, or whatever - and you're a couch potato whose only combat experience is through your Wii?

That said, I don't have any problem with the way things are now. Seems easier and more sensible than, say, most people having some kind of Combat Virgin disadvantage supposedly worth [-15].

[LynGrey]

the thing about Combat Reflexes, is you can only buy it once. So you only get the bonus from it once. Enhanced dodge you could by 5 times and have a very solid dodge skill to always roll agianst in combat.