Some Ogre Ideas - Page 2

JLV · 04-30-2012, 11:32 AM

I cannot imagine guerrillas or partisans being particularly useful (or widely used) in a nuclear battlefield like the one depicted in Ogre. What would be likely to happen is some local yokels go out and manage (somehow) to kill a battlesuit (hard to do with improvised weapons and explosives) or maybe raid a completely unprotected truck convoy or something. The enemy then reacts by sending in an infantry company. Using their standard weapons, anywhere they meet resistance is reduced to smoking hole in the ground that is highly radioactive. After a few incidents like that, the local authorities will take care of any of the local boys and girls that are feeling froggy, just to avoid the inevitable collateral damage from the response. And that's with restrictive ROE -- it would be a lot worse if the response force pulls a Nazi SS scenario on the resisting village....

DSumner · 04-30-2012, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLV

I cannot imagine guerrillas or partisans being particularly useful (or widely used) in a nuclear battlefield like the one depicted in Ogre. What would be likely to happen is some local yokels go out and manage (somehow) to kill a battlesuit (hard to do with improvised weapons and explosives) or maybe raid a completely unprotected truck convoy or something. The enemy then reacts by sending in an infantry company. Using their standard weapons, anywhere they meet resistance is reduced to smoking hole in the ground that is highly radioactive. After a few incidents like that, the local authorities will take care of any of the local boys and girls that are feeling froggy, just to avoid the inevitable collateral damage from the response. And that's with restrictive ROE -- it would be a lot worse if the response force pulls a Nazi SS scenario on the resisting village....

I'm thinking they'd be operating in China, South East Asia, Afghanistan/Pakistan border area, or some place similar. Or some of the less developed areas of the world.

offsides · 04-30-2012, 01:58 PM

For me the big difference between partisans and militia is as follows:

Partisans are just the locals who are protecting their homes as best they can, and aren't going to follow the battle or otherwise care about what the regular army does, as long as it does it elsewhere. They're not going to stick around after making an attack, or try to fight a pitched battle. Thats why they can disband - they blow their wad, drop their heavy gear, and go home, hoping that they managed to encourage the enemy to go around their homes instead of through them.

Militia are organized, trained and equipped to fight when called upon, and while not any more likely to survive a pitched battle, they're more likely to be called upon to defend someone else's home and/or go where they're most needed.

Militia show up on the TO&E and are expected to follow orders (as long as they're within reason - you can't ask militia to go up against an Ogre for instance); partisans don't, and most likely won't. I do agree that against anything heavier than a a squad or two of INF or a single light armor unit, partisans aren't going to do much, and may just **** off the invaders. But they've existed in almost every historical conflict in one form or another, which is why I even came up with them...

DSumner · 04-30-2012, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by offsides

For me the big difference between partisans and militia is as follows:

Partisans are just the locals who are protecting their homes as best they can, and aren't going to follow the battle or otherwise care about what the regular army does, as long as it does it elsewhere. They're not going to stick around after making an attack, or try to fight a pitched battle. Thats why they can disband - they blow their wad, drop their heavy gear, and go home, hoping that they managed to encourage the enemy to go around their homes instead of through them.

Militia are organized, trained and equipped to fight when called upon, and while not any more likely to survive a pitched battle, they're more likely to be called upon to defend someone else's home and/or go where they're most needed.

Militia show up on the TO&E and are expected to follow orders (as long as they're within reason - you can't ask militia to go up against an Ogre for instance); partisans don't, and most likely won't. I do agree that against anything heavier than a a squad or two of INF or a single light armor unit, partisans aren't going to do much, and may just **** off the invaders. But they've existed in almost every historical conflict in one form or another, which is why I even came up with them...

When I mentioned Militia, I just meant that you'd use the Militia counters to represent the insurgents (I should have been a little clearer in my description). But, you've got a pretty good analysis going. Although not all insurgent groups are locally based, it's not unusual for a group to be based outside the area they're operating in.

sir_pudding · 04-30-2012, 02:59 PM

I'm not sure if COIN is at all interesting at the OGRE scale. It seems like you'd just end up moving units across the map and occasionally the insurgent player would reveal that he has a hovertruck loaded with a nuke that he's driven into your GEV. Maybe my own experience with COIN is coloring this, though.

JLV · 04-30-2012, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I'm not sure if COIN is at all interesting at the OGRE scale. It seems like you'd just end up moving units across the map and occasionally the insurgent player would reveal that he has a hovertruck loaded with a nuke that he's driven into your GEV. Maybe my own experience with COIN is coloring this, though.

I have to agree with Sir P on this one. I just can't see them being much more than something to kill. Really, given their basic lack of mobility (can YOU run 1500 meters in four minutes, set up, and shoot something at an enemy tank?), they could just as easily be simulated by a building or strongpoint marker. That's why Steve rationalized the battlesuits to begin with I think -- to make the Mobile Infantry, well, mobile. Partisans and stuff like that might just as well be printed on the map. If you are going to provide trucks and GEV-PCs to move them around, they become...Militia! :-)

Sorry, I just see them adding a lot of extra record keeping ("Now where did I put that damn partisan group?") without a commensurate return on the investment in game terms. Actually, you could probably simulate the whole thing by giving certain hexes an "intrinsic defense strength" (1/1, D1). That would probably provide the same kind of feel without bogging the game down too much. You'd need some counters backprinted with "?" and then either showing the 1/1, D1, or the word "Dummy" on the front. Then you put a given number of them in the scenario and the other guy gets to find out which are which at some inconvenient point in the scenario. Something like that might make it do-able in game terms without leaving the players completely bogged down.

sir_pudding · 04-30-2012, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLV

Sorry, I just see them adding a lot of extra record keeping ("Now where did I put that damn partisan group?") without a commensurate return on the investment in game terms. Actually, you could probably simulate the whole thing by giving certain hexes an "intrinsic defense strength" (1/1, D1). That would probably provide the same kind of feel without bogging the game down too much. You'd need some counters backprinted with "?" and then either showing the 1/1, D1, or the word "Dummy" on the front. Then you put a given number of them in the scenario and the other guy gets to find out which are which at some inconvenient point in the scenario. Something like that might make it do-able in game terms without leaving the players completely bogged down.

Even then I don't really see it as being an interesting scenario. Patrols are pretty boring, even when real people are actually trying to kill you. Gaming them out? I just don't see it.

JLV · 04-30-2012, 03:15 PM

Presumably, they wouldn't be the only counters on the map. If all you were going to do is put some intrinsic defense markers down and then run some MI against them, I think I'd rather watch paint dry.

sir_pudding · 04-30-2012, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLV

Presumably, they wouldn't be the only counters on the map. If all you were going to do is put some intrinsic defense markers down and then run some MI against them, I think I'd rather watch paint dry.

Yeah, but that's COIN, isn't it? Conventional operations are different, and I suppose you could do something with conventional ops supported by partisans, but it real-life that's never been very effective. The Fedayeen Saddamn were barely even road bumps during the conventional phase of OIF. Insurgencies are a slow bleed.

JLV · 04-30-2012, 03:23 PM

Don't disagree, however what I was thinking of was the Russians overrunning large areas controlled by Russian partisans during WWII -- the partisans had some (minimal) impact on German tactical operations when that stuff was going on (the fight around Kanev was particularly instructive in that regard), and therefore the intrinsic defense strength units might make an interesting add for a scenario specific kind of event.

But yeah, overall, I can't see putting together a "Partizan!" expansion for Ogre.

04-30-2012, 11:32 AM	#11
JLV Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Arizona	Re: Some Ogre Ideas I cannot imagine guerrillas or partisans being particularly useful (or widely used) in a nuclear battlefield like the one depicted in Ogre. What would be likely to happen is some local yokels go out and manage (somehow) to kill a battlesuit (hard to do with improvised weapons and explosives) or maybe raid a completely unprotected truck convoy or something. The enemy then reacts by sending in an infantry company. Using their standard weapons, anywhere they meet resistance is reduced to smoking hole in the ground that is highly radioactive. After a few incidents like that, the local authorities will take care of any of the local boys and girls that are feeling froggy, just to avoid the inevitable collateral damage from the response. And that's with restrictive ROE -- it would be a lot worse if the response force pulls a Nazi SS scenario on the resisting village....

04-30-2012, 01:58 PM	#13
offsides Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Cheltenham, PA	Re: Some Ogre Ideas For me the big difference between partisans and militia is as follows: Partisans are just the locals who are protecting their homes as best they can, and aren't going to follow the battle or otherwise care about what the regular army does, as long as it does it elsewhere. They're not going to stick around after making an attack, or try to fight a pitched battle. Thats why they can disband - they blow their wad, drop their heavy gear, and go home, hoping that they managed to encourage the enemy to go around their homes instead of through them. Militia are organized, trained and equipped to fight when called upon, and while not any more likely to survive a pitched battle, they're more likely to be called upon to defend someone else's home and/or go where they're most needed. Militia show up on the TO&E and are expected to follow orders (as long as they're within reason - you can't ask militia to go up against an Ogre for instance); partisans don't, and most likely won't. I do agree that against anything heavier than a a squad or two of INF or a single light armor unit, partisans aren't going to do much, and may just **** off the invaders. But they've existed in almost every historical conflict in one form or another, which is why I even came up with them... __________________ Joshua Megerman, SJGames MIB #5273 - Ogre AI Testing Division

04-30-2012, 02:59 PM	#15
sir_pudding Wielder of Smart Pants Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ventura CA	Re: Some Ogre Ideas I'm not sure if COIN is at all interesting at the OGRE scale. It seems like you'd just end up moving units across the map and occasionally the insurgent player would reveal that he has a hovertruck loaded with a nuke that he's driven into your GEV. Maybe my own experience with COIN is coloring this, though.

04-30-2012, 03:15 PM	#18
JLV Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Arizona	Re: Some Ogre Ideas Presumably, they wouldn't be the only counters on the map. If all you were going to do is put some intrinsic defense markers down and then run some MI against them, I think I'd rather watch paint dry.

04-30-2012, 03:23 PM	#20
JLV Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Arizona	Re: Some Ogre Ideas Don't disagree, however what I was thinking of was the Russians overrunning large areas controlled by Russian partisans during WWII -- the partisans had some (minimal) impact on German tactical operations when that stuff was going on (the fight around Kanev was particularly instructive in that regard), and therefore the intrinsic defense strength units might make an interesting add for a scenario specific kind of event. But yeah, overall, I can't see putting together a "Partizan!" expansion for Ogre.