Creatures and sizes

[tomc]

I was more liberal in my interpretation of summoning, and let "Summon Wolf" summon any creature with wolf comparable combat ability. If it was more powerful than a wolf, try a myrmidon, etc. That way if a Jaguar, or snake, appeared, it wasn't a given to that it was an image or illusion. It makes summoning and illusions a bit more useful, a lot more flavorful, and didn't break my games.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

I think of all of the Summons spells are hyper-specific. They are invoking the exact totem named in the spell, calling it by name, so with each Summons spell what you call is what you get.

That said, I wish there were far more Summons spells. We don't even have a Summon Snake, do we, and that's one of the animals from original Melee! And yes, each and every one should continue to be learned separately.

I'd allow an Illusion of any animal or creature the GM (or the RAW) said existed in that particular game world, but it has to be something the PCs have at least heard or read of, if not actually seen in person. I'd only allow the Illusion of a 3-hex reptile man if there were actually known to be 3-hex reptile men in existence.

Of course as GM you can wave that magic wand (aka your #2 pencil) anytime you want and say "Yes, there are giant reptile men on the island of Thera, found in the southern part of the Winedark Sea", so that's that. But it's up to the GM. A PC can't up and decide a new species exists, as in my case where the guy wanted a 3-hex Gargoyle.

I concur. As in my case, I had foggy memories of 40 years ago that got mixed up. I thought there had been a 3 hex Giant Reptile man-like creature but I couldn't find one. I wasn't about to try to drop it in a game without verifying with a GM.

When a reptile man wizard summons a myrmidon. It can be a legal 32 point reptile man. Any wizard could do that if he had seen one.

Perhaps a GM would allow a 3 hex giant reptile man illusion but that may not be a legal illusion either.

[Skarg]

A house rule article in the olde Interplay magazine suggested replacing the summoning spells with a series of numbered summoning levels, with lists of which spell level you needed (and so, the ST costs) for summoning a long list of creatures.

I ran a campaign that used that for a while. It certainly adds a lot of versatility and capability to summoning. It also means images and illusions are even more powerful, because a strange creature appearing out of thin air could very easily be a real summon.

Of course, summons, images and illusions are already some of the most capable and powerful things in the game, so one might want to be cautious about making them moreso, unless one is certain that is what one wants.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Skarg

A house rule article in the olde Interplay magazine suggested replacing the summoning spells with a series of numbered summoning levels, with lists of which spell level you needed (and so, the ST costs) for summoning a long list of creatures.

I ran a campaign that used that for a while. It certainly adds a lot of versatility and capability to summoning. It also means images and illusions are even more powerful, because a strange creature appearing out of thin air could very easily be a real summon.

Of course, summons, images and illusions are already some of the most capable and powerful things in the game, so one might want to be cautious about making them moreso, unless one is certain that is what one wants.

While illusions and images probably have far more versatility with respect to which ones pop up, actually summoning a creature is a different "creature" all on it's own. I would have no problem allowing a general summoning spell to allow for any equivalent that less than or equal to the base summoning spell. To do so doesn't require adding a complicated list of summoning spells but should be a short consult before or during play to see if the GM is willing to allow it.

Previously mentioned Summon Myrmidon (Figher) allows for any legal ST, DX, IQ, weapon. armor, and attribute total up to 32 points. In my opinion, it doesn't have to be human. It could be any, presumably one hex, race/species that meets these requirements provided that the character is aware of them.

Now, looking at the Summon Giant Spell, that becomes more specific or restrictive because finding an equivalent non-humanoid, 3 hex, giant is much less likely. On the reptilian side, they seem to jump to 4 hex creatures. One could possibly allow for other reptiles within a Summon 4 Hex Dragon spell but who would want to do that when you get to summon a dragon at your command. You could possibly be allowed to summon a larger/stronger/clumsier/dumber one hex character of a certain race at the same cost of spell casting ST for a Giant. Again, your GM would have to be on board with it.

Since I have been locked onto the Reptile Man Wizard giant summoning example, here is how I would propose the above paragraph. Since a Reptile Man is a large one hex character, a summon giant substitute would be a 2-hex (to account for tail space) saurian fighter that is ~8 feet tall having a max ST of 20 and the same DX and IQ limitations as a giant. It could be considered to be like a Reptile Man Lycanthrope while not having some of the advantaged that go outside of giant DX and IQ restrictions. While this may be interesting, the Lizard Wizard would actually benefit more from summoning an actual giant or bear known to the world of Cidri.

As a GM, I would entertain grouping acceptable creatures that could be summoned within existing summoning spells at the stated cost of the those spells. An example would be summoning a two hex creature that may prove more useful in a situation that a 3 hex giant by using the Summon Giant Spell. The resultant creature would have to be close (GM call) or less than the base spell. Such an approach would allow more summoning versatility without writing up a huge list of new spells.

[Skarg]

This should really be in the House Rules thread, but . . .

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

Previously mentioned Summon Myrmidon (Figher) allows for any legal ST, DX, IQ, weapon. armor, and attribute total up to 32 points. In my opinion, it doesn't have to be human. It could be any, presumably one hex, race/species that meets these requirements provided that the character is aware of them.

GMs who allow that end up with an awful lot of MA 12 elf myrmidons. ;-)

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

Now, looking at the Summon Giant Spell, that becomes more specific or restrictive because finding an equivalent non-humanoid, 3 hex, giant is much less likely. On the reptilian side, they seem to jump to 4 hex creatures. One could possibly allow for other reptiles within a Summon 4 Hex Dragon spell but who would want to do that when you get to summon a dragon at your command.

That really depends on what the local bestiary is like, what the PCs know about it, and what the GM will let them get away with.

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

You could possibly be allowed to summon a larger/stronger/clumsier/dumber one hex character of a certain race at the same cost of spell casting ST for a Giant. Again, your GM would have to be on board with it.

Again, making summoning ever more flexible and more powerful than it already is.

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

. . . While this may be interesting, the Lizard Wizard would actually benefit more from summoning an actual giant or bear known to the world of Cidri.

That's one way to try to keep it from getting out of hand: limiting any variations to something notably less optimal than the main thing that spell summons. Otherwise, anything better than the usual will tend to become the new usual thing for the spell. e.g. Ok you can summon an elvish myrmidon with MA 12, but it's an average (30-point) elf.

The other things to consider are any special useful abilities a summon might have, such as alternate or heightened senses, flying, climbing, swimming, great ST, etc.

In a campaign, one may want to think about what it takes for a wizard to be able to summon a new animal type that they couldn't and/or didn't know about before. If I meet a tiger for the first time on turn 1, can I summon one on turn 2, or do I need to get to know one over some period of study?

A balance option could be to have both versatile summoning spells, and specialized summoning spells that summon only one thing, with some advantage (e.g. ST costs) to the more specialized ones.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Skarg

This should really be in the House Rules thread, but . . .


GMs who allow that end up with an awful lot of MA 12 elf myrmidons. ;-)



That really depends on what the local bestiary is like, what the PCs know about it, and what the GM will let them get away with.



Again, making summoning ever more flexible and more powerful than it already is.



That's one way to try to keep it from getting out of hand: limiting any variations to something notably less optimal than the main thing that spell summons. Otherwise, anything better than the usual will tend to become the new usual thing for the spell. e.g. Ok you can summon an elvish myrmidon with MA 12, but it's an average (30-point) elf.

The other things to consider are any special useful abilities a summon might have, such as alternate or heightened senses, flying, climbing, swimming, great ST, etc.

In a campaign, one may want to think about what it takes for a wizard to be able to summon a new animal type that they couldn't and/or didn't know about before. If I meet a tiger for the first time on turn 1, can I summon one on turn 2, or do I need to get to know one over some period of study?

A balance option could be to have both versatile summoning spells, and specialized summoning spells that summon only one thing, with some advantage (e.g. ST costs) to the more specialized ones.

I concur except for your seemingly visceral dislike of elves with MA of 12. LOL!. They usually aren't heavily armored or carry heavy weapons--especially ones of the 32 point variety.

I think that the summoning spells are OK. If a GM wants to allow some creatures being summoned that fit within spells, so be it. I agree that this is a House Rules type of discussion.

[Skarg]

I don't dislike MA 12 elves. I just used them as an example of why I don't think Summon Myrmidon intends elves to be an option, and that if you expand what can be summoned, you tend to creep up the ability levels of those spells, and make the standard use of them a case of "only foolish people actually summon an ordinary myrmidon", etc.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Skarg

I don't dislike MA 12 elves. I just used them as an example of why I don't think Summon Myrmidon intends elves to be an option, and that if you expand what can be summoned, you tend to creep up the ability levels of those spells, and make the standard use of them a case of "only foolish people actually summon an ordinary myrmidon", etc.

Why wouldn't an elf wizard summon an elf fighter? Why wouldn't a Reptile man Wizard summon a Reptile man fighter?

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

Why wouldn't an elf wizard summon an elf fighter? Why wouldn't a Reptile man Wizard summon a Reptile man fighter?

They could theoretically have researched such spells (and might, in some campaigns), but according to ITL, there is a spell that has a certain effect, and that's not how it works. Summons aren't actual people literally brought from someplace else - they don't have names or histories or opinions - they're conjured. They "bring a magical fighter into being" and "it has no will of its own" (ITL p.137). I wouldn't think they had a particular race, and maybe they can look like an elf, but they aren't an actual elf.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Summons aren't actual people literally brought from someplace else - they don't have names or histories or opinions - they're conjured. They "bring a magical fighter into being" and "it has no will of its own" (ITL p.137). I wouldn't think they had a particular race, and maybe they can look like an elf, but they aren't an actual elf.

That's my preferred interpretation as well. In fact I'd prefer to think of Myrmidons appearing somewhat robotic or mechanical, with no personality in their faces.

Probably androgynous, monochromatic, homogeneous in appearance and belonging to no definite or recognizable species. That feels most in keeping with what they are supposed to be: mindless fighting machines that follow any order, only differentiated by what weaponry they come with.

Except I'm also fond of the notion that a tiny bit of the caster's personality consciously or unconsciously creeps into the appearance of all their creation spells. Maybe the wizard with a fiery personality always creates candy red Myrmidons, while another wizard's are always metallic blue. Or if the creator always wears a silly feathered hat or a bow tie, then so does any Gargoyle or Myrmidon they call up. Bears and wolves might be conjured with distinctive markings or colors. These would all have to be superficial things, they couldn't confer any advantages lest everyone starts conjuring up the same thing. Just nuances to give things more depth and occasionally make the players laugh.