Unarmed Combat Again

[David Bofinger]

I'm not sure how good unarmed combat is meant to be. From a realism POV not nearly as good. From a balance POV it has special advantages (never disarmed, not visibly armed, no time wasted preparing weapons) so not as good as fighting with weapons. How much worse depends on how important you see those advantages as being but it may be intended that unarmed combat characters be used mostly in campaigns where such advantages are of great value.

[David Bofinger]

I agree kicks are badly written, and it's a sad that the shrewd blows of Weapon Expertise and Fencing have a very similar problem, decades later.

[David Bofinger]

I think the first change I'd make to Unarmed Combat is to break it up so it's less of a ladder. At a very minimum there should be a boxing path and a wrestling path.

At higher levels, when things get mystical, it becomes a package of rules that won't apply in every campaign. And that package should include everything that martial artists can do in Hong Kong action films, including being able to jump ridiculous heights, fly, run on the tips of trees, etc.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

I think the first change I'd make to Unarmed Combat is to break it up so it's less of a ladder. At a very minimum there should be a boxing path and a wrestling path.

At higher levels, when things get mystical, it becomes a package of rules that won't apply in every campaign. And that package should include everything that martial artists can do in Hong Kong action films, including being able to jump ridiculous heights, fly, run on the tips of trees, etc.

I think that UC works fine provided that you take the ridiculous phrase (perhaps, the most ridiculous phrase in ITL), "and have both hands free", out of UC1. If they wield a weapon, weapons damage per their talents is applied while retaining their Evasive/Defensive UC abilities. The only exceptions is weapons that are link to Bare Hands damage like the Cestus, Dagger, and Club. I see no problem with adding the BHD damage bonuses with these weapons. We did it in our Classic TFT days and I have play tested it in Legacy. It works and doesn't upset the balance of the TFT universe. Nor does it create the situation where everyone is at an extra advantage to start a UC PC. It just becomes another weapons skill to add to a character's abilities without re-writing that part of ITL.

[David Bofinger]

I suspect this is mostly a difference in purpose. You're using UC as a general melee combat advantage. But its purpose when written was to allow people to play characters from bare-handed fighting martial arts movies. If characters who take the UC path are going to fight with weapons then that doesn't work.

But if it's used your way then the talents are a weird mix of defence in melee, probably using weapons, and bonuses to attacking unarmed. There's no good reason why these two things should be mixed together.

You think a phrase requiring that unarmed combat be carried out unarmed is ridiculous and "perhaps the most ridiculous phrase in ITL". I'm not convinced on either count.

[TippetsTX]

My own approach shares some ideas that David and Bill have mentioned, but it took a more radical (though I suspect, an ultimately more logical) path.

I wanted to work UNARMED COMBAT into a common framework for all weapon talents. I dumped UC I thru V talents entirely. You now have one base proficiency (just like any weapon) which can be enhanced w/ complementary fighting techniques or more advanced combat specializations similar to (but simpler than) the current EXPERTISE and MASTERY talents.

All elements which support a more fantastical archetype (i.e. wuxia) get shifted to a new class of character abilities called 'Powers'.

[Nils_Lindeberg]

I would like to see a more general talent for Unarmed Combat, that specifically pays for the advantages of being able to always have a weapon at hand so to speak.

Something that lets your unarmed combat scale with ST-like weapons.

It may also give a bonus to a weapon-using fighter because he can now throw in an unexpected kick, a sweep, or an elbow. Maybe +1 dmg, dx, enemy dx penalty, or armor depending on the martial arts style used. And +2 if he has a hand free to promote a single-weapon fighting style.

So UC becomes something that all fighters should learn, after learning the basic weapon style, if they have the prerequisites for it.

If UC means that your unarmed combat does similar damage to weapons, then one can use the same expertise and mastery levels or whatever type of advanced combat talents one has, and use the same for unarmed. Knowing that they will not be unbalanced.

So something like this:

No talent. Unarmed combat as is.

Talent: Unarmed Combat that scales with ST in a way that resembles normal weapons. Maybe you do damage compared to a 1H throwable weapon. Your unarmed attacks can't be thrown, and they require 2H, but they are also always ready and you can defend barehanded.

The following has a prereq. of Unarmed Combat.

Talent: Kobudo Training where you get a bonus to weapon fighting +1 or +2, if you have Unarmed Combat talent. Can be used with weapons, farm implements, or clubs.

Talent: ACT like Expertise or Mastery that gives you normal advantages like weapon-wielders get. Shrewd, better defend, etc. Eg. Unarmed Expertise.

Talent: Battle Awareness. Side hexes are front hexes and the rear is a side hex. Requires an ACT of some kind - including Unarmed Expertise. Can be used with any or no weapon.

Talent: Wrestling. You can throw with penalties on the opponent's save. You can throw and jump into HtH. You get one level of advantage when pinning and you do HtH damage +3, like a dagger. +4 if you actually have a dagger or similar weapon.

Not playtested, but it should work out balance-wise. But is it the right way to go? This change would be much bigger than my initial minor change in the OP.

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

So UC becomes something that all fighters should learn

You lost me here. That's a ladder, like D&D, with one way up. To maximise character variety we want there to be lots of paths up the cliff face, and no talent which all characters, or even all fighters, choose. Let every fighter differ, because they have their own distinctive special abilities. Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser are equal but different, don't make them converge.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

So something like this:

No talent. Unarmed combat as is.

Talent: Unarmed Combat that scales with ST in a way that resembles normal weapons. Maybe you do damage compared to a 1H throwable weapon. Your unarmed attacks can't be thrown, and they require 2H, but they are also always ready and you can defend barehanded.

The following has a prereq. of Unarmed Combat.

Talent: Kobudo Training where you get a bonus to weapon fighting +1 or +2, if you have Unarmed Combat talent. Can be used with weapons, farm implements, or clubs.

Talent: ACT like Expertise or Mastery that gives you normal advantages like weapon-wielders get. Shrewd, better defend, etc. Eg. Unarmed Expertise.

Talent: Battle Awareness. Side hexes are front hexes and the rear is a side hex. Requires an ACT of some kind - including Unarmed Expertise. Can be used with any or no weapon.

Talent: Wrestling. You can throw with penalties on the opponent's save. You can throw and jump into HtH. You get one level of advantage when pinning and you do HtH damage +3, like a dagger. +4 if you actually have a dagger or similar weapon.

Not playtested, but it should work out balance-wise. But is it the right way to go? This change would be much bigger than my initial minor change in the OP.

Counter-proposal (differing only slightly in several details, I think, the following is based on my own revisions in creating a common weapon talent framework, but adapted to be a bit more RAW friendly than my version will be):

Regardless of the ST progression you use, unarmed damage is 'non-lethal' by default (my definition of this is fatigue damage, not half-damage... faster recovery).

NO talent should work like having no weapon talent... 4/DX roll to hit, cannot defend. Anybody can punch somebody, but don't expect to be very good at it w/o training.

UNARMED COMBAT is now a base weapon talent (1-point)... 3/DX to hit and I agree w/ always ready, requiring both hands and gains ability to defend when unarmed.

BRAWLING would now require UNARMED COMBAT.

CESTUS requires UNARMED COMBAT (though I decided to just roll this proficiency into the BOXING specialization below).

[WEAPON] SPECIALIZATION (new 2-point talent) where UNARMED COMBAT is the selected 'weapon' provides a choice between two paths... GRAPPLING (or WRESTLING, if you prefer) and BOXING. Maybe some kind of KICK FIGHTING as a third choice. Each grants distinct options for HTH and melee (TBD).

[WEAPON] EXPERTISE (3-points, though I like 2 better) for UNARMED COMBAT... use existing ACT benefits or simplify w/ a less bundled, but still potent combat advantage (one suggestion is the character can now choose to do 'lethal' damage). Either way, benefits should apply to ALL forms of UNARMED COMBAT (i.e. all specializations as well as non-specialized unarmed fighters).

[WEAPON] MASTERY (3-points)... same as above. Maybe unarmed damage is now doubled if you don't want to mirror existing ACT abilities.

Weapon Enhancing Talents - Similar in concept to QUICK DRAW, each of these teaches a particular technique that requires a base weapon talent to be selected. Some may replicate and replace abilities now bundled in other talents. Ideas that would compliment UNARMED COMBAT include new talents like DISARM, DEFLECT MISSILE, or STUNNING STRIKE.

Combat Enhancing Talents - These talents apply to ALL weapons the character has proficiency in. Includes things like COMBAT AWARENESS, SWIFT STRIKE, SAVAGE STRIKE, SURGICAL STRIKE, GIANT SLAYER, etc. (many of these are presented in the 'Cidri’s Got Talent' thread).

This model will also support talents that are uniquely associated with unarmed fighting techniques. I have one called UNFETTERED DEFENSE which replaces the evade feature in the current UC framework (bare-chested barbarians are welcome to apply as well).

[timm meyers]

There is 2 obvious ways to model UC in a game setting like this.

1. titled/declared discipline w. specific rules associated. This is pretty much what TFT already does and is the same approach for dividing out different types of UC into Boxing, WuShu, Karate etc. giving each some unique attacks or options different from the others. No real build but a profession path.

2. advantages/skill trees of talents w. specific rules associated. This seems to be a common idea that some players have toyed with. The unique attacks and or abilities become player choice building blocks to construct the same Boxer to KunFu artist as RAW or #1 above + any variance in-between. A more complex choice system to build with in pursuit of an open-ended martial artist profession.

Ease and balance vs. more rules and more choice. I am such a fan of both!
What would be great is a compilation of all the different mods people have used from the wrestling rules I've seen somewhere (weren't they in a hexagram?) to the various addendums sampled here. It sounds like at least two posters here have more extensive (and play tested) rules that would be worthy reads at the minimum. This is the one aspect of combat that I can see benefiting from multiple "optional" rules/systems. Maybe a fanzine style supplement dedicated to coalating various unarmed combat approaches. The book of Martial Arts systems....