Fantasy Trip Pole Weapons and Charges

[bookworm562]

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

The naginata wielder wasn't mine. However, he'd do 11 points damage in a charge. A 32 point fighter could get ST10 and DX14, giving him a 55% chance of hitting a defending figure. Against a starting opponent, say ST11, DX13(11), leather, shield shortsword, the naginata wielder would have a better than even chance of inflicting an average of 11 points - enough to grievously injure the opponent (reducing him to ST3. The naginata wielder would be very likely to finish his opponent off - he'd go first and have a 91% chance of hitting with average 5.5 points of damage).

I think the naginata is too powerful. It does 2 points more damage than a spear and can wielded at 1 ST less. 1+1 damage would be more appropriate in my opinion.

We always charged the pole arms wielder, and defended. It is no longer a charge attack, it is a charge and defend, so no +2 and no double damage either. Does anyone else use this mechanic? Would that change the dynamic? The pole weapons become, sort of a very short range archer.

By the way, reducing damage on the pole weapons seems fine to me. I always felt that the 2 hex jab behind 2 Swords was a horrible thing to attack, just like the charging pike axeman.

Lastly, players can face the same things they create for their characters. What do they do then?

[bookworm562]

Pole weapons and charges were always a bit of heartburn for GM when we started.

The response was to charge and defend. Not a charge attack, therefore not +2 DX and no double damage. Some made the case that shifting one hex and attacking wasn't a charge attack either. (meh... but it was his game.)

The next response was archers targeted the lightly armored pole weapons user for the threat they presented. More armor reduced the range and mobility.

Then there was the insult, your pole weapon doesn't fit in the dungeon.

We eventually dropped the double damage on a charge altogether. The two hex jab with 2 other swordsmen in front was nasty as could be and people cooperating was just as effective as charges. Plus philosophically, when players cooperate I think the game is better.

It amounts to one paragraph in Advanced Mêlée and easy enough to just drop. The genre is Swords and Sorcery not Pole Weapons and Sha-Ken. Plus it seemed more playable. You don't have to fix it if its not there.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

Watch out, you may wind up recreating Gygax’s pole weapon fetish in AD&D :)

Gygax didn't know what he was doing. He made distinctions that don't matter to how it functions. The Glaive-Guisarme is just a glaive.

Functionally, there are only a double-handful of useful bits that define types

• Single-point thrusting ("Spears", Awls)
• Multi-point thrusting (Forks and tridents)
• Pole-axes
• heavy blade on a stick (Glaive, Naginata)
• swung Picks, spikes, and beaks (essentially Armor Penetrators)
• hooks and pole-sickles - cut by pull and/or pull riders
• Pole-hammers
• Grabbing weapons
• Hybrids of the above

These can be simplified further into the following with only a mild loss of fidelit:

• Thrusting (Does it really make much difference if it's an awl, dagger, or a spike?)
• Swung blades (a glaive and a poleaxe are pretty similar in swung use)
• Swung spikes
• Swung hammers
• wielder-facing blades and hooks

Different damages by weight - light, medium, heavy - and call it done.

A few things that people sometimes think of as polearms really aren't.

The Javelin and throwing spear are not really polearms. Throwing spears and javelins are usually much lighter, and are at best a desperation weapon in close order melee. A parry is likely to destroy them.

The Pilum (plural: pilae) is also not a polearm - it's intended use is to weight the opponent's shield... stab it through the shield, then drop it; the long head bends, and it adds a couple pounds at a longer moment arm position, so it makes it hard to use the shield. (If you stick it into the ribcage, it has even more annoying effects.)

[JLV]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

Yes, charge attacks with polearms are too strong. After a few decades of reflecting on it, I don't think that charging with a halberd is any better than charging with any big pointy stick. The halberd's blade doesn't help in the charge. And I'm willing to listen to argument that the javelin is too short and light to get a charge bonus.

Depends somewhat on the "javelin," I'd say. Thrown spears would still qualify in my opinion, specifically lighter javelins (purpose-designed, you might say) wouldn't (and would do less damage inherently, IMO).

And something like a Pilum, specifically designed for the head to break off in the enemy, or his shield, in order to hamper his movement and defense (and prevent the enemy from using it by throwing it back at you!) would obviously be completely unsuitable for a charge attack -- the energy of the charge would be wasted when the neck of the pilum bent and snapped (as it was designed to do). Heck, you can't even use the pilum the way the Zulus did the Assegai, to parry and stab; at least not reliably.

Which raises the question about whether or not something such as a "short spear" (Assegai) should be a category of weapon...

The real question becomes how to make the rule simple, and the simplest way is to state that javelins may NOT be used in a pole-weapon charge attack, but that spears can. (Arguably, "short spears" wouldn't work well in a charge either -- they are a man-to-man weapon, not a pole weapon.)

[larsdangly]

Here's a question for the hive mind: The rules stipulate that a javelin can't be used to 'jab', but then the combat example in Advanced Melee includes an instance where one of the characters does just that. What do you do?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

Here's a question for the hive mind: The rules stipulate that a javelin can't be used to 'jab', but then the combat example in Advanced Melee includes an instance where one of the characters does just that. What do you do?

We use this javelin in class for throwing and occasionally a blunted version, or even a longer one, for sparring. You can definitely jab with it, though the 50" length doesn't really make up for the lack of cutting edge when used one-handed (the roughly 6' version we use DOES have enough reach for making up for lack of versatility)

[larsdangly]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

We use this javelin in class for throwing and occasionally a blunted version, or even a longer one, for sparring. You can definitely jab with it, though the 50" length doesn't really make up for the lack of cutting edge when used one-handed (the roughly 6' version we use DOES have enough reach for making up for lack of versatility)

That makes sense to me. Both because 'why not; they were long!', and because the rules are built around rational trade offs between various sorts of requirements and capabilities, and the 'jab' capability is part of what you get when you accept the reduced base damage for a given ST of pole weapons.

[trag]

I like the rules as written, because with the Two Weapons talent, and a strength of 26, you can wield a pike-ax in one hand, a great-sword in the other hand, then charge with one, and sweeping blow with the other, all in the same turn. :-)

[JLV]

Originally Posted by trag

I like the rules as written, because with the Two Weapons talent, and a strength of 26, you can wield a pike-ax in one hand, a great-sword in the other hand, then charge with one, and sweeping blow with the other, all in the same turn. :-)

Fortunately I wasn't drinking anything when I read this! ;-)

I haven't gone through the rules to verify that this is true, but I have a sneaking suspicion it IS. Which just goes back to a "law" that Redmond Simonsen (the father of modern wargame graphics) laid down over 40 years ago at the original SPI -- "Don't just playtest the logical moves; playtest the oddball ones too," because you might just find that one of your rules makes it possible to do something that's actually impossible!

[ecz]

I played pole weapons this way and worked pretty well:

1) Double only the actual damage after any reduction for armor or magic.

example: Ononko the Barbarian charges Zug the Viking with his spear. He hits and roll 6 points of damage. Zug's leather stops 2 hits, so the damage actually taken is 4 points. The charge double these 4 points for a net total of 8 hits taken by the target.

2) Who uses Halberd or Pike Ax need space to manouvre. Any figure (friendly or enemy does no matter) occupying a rear or side hex when the Halberd or Axe is used, subtracts 1DX from the Adj DX of the Pole Weapon user. More figures add the penalty.

3) No DX bonus for being charged while using a polearm

4) any polearm making 8 or more hit points is stuck in the enemy's body. The user can free the weapon istantly making a 3D/ST. If fails the weapon stay stuck until in any following turn the user makes the 3D/ST.
Any attempt to remove the weapon, failed or succeded, causes half damage to the victim. The target, if still conscious, each turn MUST try to unstick the weapon, no other action are allowed.

These few changes makes less powerful the pole arms leaving untouched their main traits