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Old 01-25-2018, 03:49 AM   #1
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Supercavitating OGRE Weapons...

In another thread, the topic of OGREs being able to fire Missiles when Submerged came up:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwalend View Post
Load the MkIV with supercavitating missiles that can fire from the water bottom and hit the marines in the water.
The Supercavitating OGRE Missiles would really be nice to have. I always thought OGREs should be able to fire their Missiles when Submerged at submerged or unsubmerged targets.

What about Supercavitating Main and Secondary Batteries and AP Guns? What about Supercavitating weapons equipped on all units?

No? Yes, at reduced range and attack strength? Yes, at reduced range? Yes, at reduced attack strength? Yes?

I'm partial to the Yes for all weapons on all units however at half attack strength and normal range. Officially the OGRE can be attacked at half attack strength by enemy HWZ and MWZ. So a OGRE could take cover Submerged in water and have enemy attacks received at half attack strength, but it's own attacks against enemy targets is also at half attack strength (round down). Missiles=3, MB=2, SB=1. AP Guns=.5 (round down. Would take x2 AP Guns to equal attack strength 1). I think the OGRE should have more of a fighting chance when Submerged, especially against enemy GEVs. The OGRE can't be attacked by them, but it can't attack them either. Atm, there seems to be too much of a gap there the OGRE is unresponsive and ineffective. OGREs seem to be too anemic when in water. GEVs seem to have too much of a advantage in this situation.

How viable is any of this for OGRE. Any thoughts?
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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 01-25-2018 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 01-25-2018, 01:58 PM   #2
Misplaced Buckeye
 
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Default Re: Supercavitating OGRE Weapons...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
In another thread, the topic of OGREs being able to fire Missiles when Submerged came up:



The Supercavitating OGRE Missiles would really be nice to have. I always thought OGREs should be able to fire their Missiles when Submerged at submerged or unsubmerged targets.

What about Supercavitating Main and Secondary Batteries and AP Guns? What about Supercavitating weapons equipped on all units?

No? Yes, at reduced range and attack strength? Yes, at reduced range? Yes, at reduced attack strength? Yes?

I'm partial to the Yes for all weapons on all units however at half attack strength and normal range. Officially the OGRE can be attacked at half attack strength by enemy HWZ and MWZ. So a OGRE could take cover Submerged in water and have enemy attacks received at half attack strength, but it's own attacks against enemy targets is also at half attack strength (round down). Missiles=3, MB=2, SB=1. AP Guns=.5 (round down. Would take x2 AP Guns to equal attack strength 1). I think the OGRE should have more of a fighting chance when Submerged, especially against enemy GEVs. Atm, there seems to be too much of a gap there the OGRE is unresponsive and ineffective. OGREs seem to be too anemic when in water. GEVs seem to have too much of a advantage in this situation.

How viable is any of this for OGRE. Any thoughts?
So Tim, we're talking an AQUAOGRE correct? All munitions watertight ala torpedos for projectiles I assume. What about non projectile? Seems like it would be useless on this Ogre . Floating homing mines might make it interesting...watch GEVS and Marines dodge them.

Seems like a submersible GEV would also be feasible as well as Powersuited submersible marine ala Deep Six from GI JOE

This could be a whole new area for ...not to throw any shade on the Ogreships from past articles.
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Old 01-25-2018, 02:34 PM   #3
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Default Re: Supercavitating OGRE Weapons...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplaced Buckeye View Post
So Tim, we're talking an AQUAOGRE correct? All munitions watertight ala torpedos for projectiles I assume.
He said "supercavitating" like four times, so I am guessing he's talking about supercavitating munitions and not conventional torpedoes.
Quote:
What about non projectile? Seems like it would be useless on this Ogre.
Laser wavelengths are possible with some utility underwater.
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Seems like a submersible GEV would also be feasible as well as Powersuited submersible marine ala Deep Six from GI JOE
That's what marines are already.
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Old 01-25-2018, 02:46 PM   #4
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Default Re: Supercavitating OGRE Weapons...

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
He said "supercavitating" like four times, so I am guessing he's talking about supercavitating munitions and not conventional torpedoes. Laser wavelengths are possible with some utility underwater.
That's what marines are already.
What Pudding you get out of the bed on the wrong side...such negative vibes...change your avatar to Moriarty....;)...anyway. All aquatic submersible scenario should have some unknown quantities. So let's hear your ideas o' grand smartie pants wielder.

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Old 01-25-2018, 03:01 PM   #5
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Default Re: Supercavitating OGRE Weapons...

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Originally Posted by Misplaced Buckeye View Post
What Pudding you get out of the bed on the wrong side...such negative vibes...change your avatar to Moriarty....;)...anyway. All aquatic submersible scenario should have some unknown quantities. So let's hear your ideas o' grand smartie pants wielder.
That's me, captain no fun.

I think mines are a good idea without adding anything weird.

Submersible launch missiles would be a great scenario specific Ninja trick, in fact this gives an idea.

Slightly weirder would be cruise missiles with SubRoc style depth charge warheads.

It also occurs to me that a submerged Vulcan or Ninja could still use drone GEVs on the surface.
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Old 01-25-2018, 04:24 PM   #6
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: Supercavitating OGRE Weapons...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplaced Buckeye View Post
So Tim, we're talking an AQUAOGRE correct?
Sure...ok, and the new GI JOE Marines all have kung-fu BPC grip. :)

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Originally Posted by Misplaced Buckeye View Post
All munitions watertight ala torpedos for projectiles I assume. What about non projectile?.
The answer is in the technology we are only seeing glimpses of today that may be developed into stuff complimentary to the OGREverse.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
He said "supercavitating" like four times, so I am guessing he's talking about supercavitating munitions and not conventional torpedoes.
I said it like four times to be clear and look where that got the topic...no need to guess, really, I promise, I am talking about SUPERCAVITATING MUNITIONS. This technology is being developed as we speak, so what will a few decades from now look like? That's all I'm trying to explore here.

Ok, the main concern I have is that if Submerged OGREs can be attacked by OGRE Missiles and HWZ and MWZ, why can't OGRE Missiles make attacks from a Submerged OGRE? Obviously it's to keep the OGRE from becoming too powerful because it would prioritize using Water as cover all the time and make attacks from that terrain. Which I happen to think is not a bad thing at all. But my concern mentioned above remains.

Now, if you make it that such attacks from a Submerged OGRE are also at half-strength, then that brings the OGRE back into balance. This is effectively also changing the speed dynamic of a game by lengthening the battle the longer such half-strength attacks occur because you won't be Disabling or Xing as often. This allows the enemy and you more time to position forces against each other before they are Disabled or Xed on a equal footing.

This situation may or may not be advantageous to you or the enemy. Whether it is used or not, it creates a interesting dynamic we currently do not have. I speak of the gap in action and attacks mentioned earlier where attacks are mostly non-existent and the OGRE seems anemic when Submerged. This would allow more meaningful events happening in that gap.

Example: My Custom Scenario OPERATION 4DARK 4DELTA has a Rogue Mark4 self-mission oriented to eliminate all enemy Federation forces in a defended Delta. It wins when all those units and Command Post are destroyed, in no particular order because it has to X everything to win. The Federation has to stop the MARK4 by immobilizing it. Towards end game, especially if a GEV heavy force is taken, the game becomes unbalanced favoring the Federation because the OGRE gets reduced and the GEVs just cake-walk it to death eventually. This, Imho, becomes tedious and kind of boring because the end game victory goes to the Federation once it's clear they are unchallenged and have tactical superiority. That's the gap I'm talking about and trying to explore to see what can be done to makes things more interesting right up to the end game victory. This would do that because now the OGRE could, if it had any remaining weapons, still have a chance to attack those end game GEVs when Submerged. It's just a more enjoyable game as I imagine it playing out after being disappointed playing a game when this is not possible.

The rule is simple:
Submerged OGREs may make half-strength attacks (round down) against Submerged and Non-Submerged units.
Non-Submerged OGREs may make half-strength attacks (round Down) against Submerged units.


So a OGRE could take cover Submerged in water and have enemy attacks received at half attack strength, but it's own attacks against enemy targets is also at half attack strength (round down). Missiles=3, MB=2, SB=1. AP Guns=.5 (round down. Would take x2 AP Guns to equal attack strength 1). A Non-Submerged OGRE attacking Submerged units also follows the same rule.

The interesting balance here is do you really want to be Submerged for the half-attack defense from enemy attacks, but you will suffer attacking them with the same half-strength attacks. Do you really want to use those Missiles at reduced attack strength of 3 instead of 6 to have cover in the water? You may want to not use them until you are out of the water...ect. That's the interesting dynamic this brings to the game.

...and of course, this rule hinges entirely on if we can also use the "Hold-Fire" Rule being discussed in another thread. :-)
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=154685
Because a Move 3 OGRE can only move 1 hex Submerged and a Move 4 OGRE can move 2 for example. Not enough to catch a GEV in time to counter attack...unless the OGRE can "Hold-Fire". Now that's what I'm talking about. That's a fun battle right to the bitter end.
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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 01-25-2018 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 01-25-2018, 04:50 PM   #7
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Default Re: Supercavitating OGRE Weapons...

If you're going to go the route of accurate future weapons underwater, and worry about making the Ogre too powerful there, then just balance it with the fact that any explosions of nuclear munitions underwater will have vastly more effective outcomes - autokill outcomes.
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Old 01-25-2018, 08:16 PM   #8
dwalend
 
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Default Re: Supercavitating OGRE Weapons...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
The Supercavitating OGRE Missiles would really be nice to have. I always thought OGREs should be able to fire their Missiles when Submerged at submerged or unsubmerged targets.

What about Supercavitating Main and Secondary Batteries and AP Guns? What about Supercavitating weapons equipped on all units?

No? Yes, at reduced range and attack strength? Yes, at reduced range? Yes, at reduced attack strength? Yes?
My thought is to tread lightly. Add a little at a time, maybe just in a scenario, and see how it fits. GEVs + Marines should be able to rule a water map, and ogres generally don't need a boost. They've already got a water advantage - immunity from all but marines, ogre missiles, and howitzers when underwater.

"Ogre missiles, and howitzers" - We might already have supercavitator munitions, or at least artillery-launched torpedos.

You don't have to have supercavitator munitions to launch a missile from in the water; you just have to have an ejector to get it to the surface, then ignite it there. We've had those on submarines since the 1960s, maybe longer.

For a long time I played with "Ogre missiles in tubes can be fired from the water." That worked pretty well; a MkIII had to think a bit about using a missile on marines, vs giving up some treads. (I'd have to dig into the archive to see if that was ever an official rule.)

I don't think I tried a MkIV firing from missile racks in the water. M2 in underwater is really good. I hadn't noticed that. Firing from in the water would make the MkIV an even better raider.

Missile shots on GEVs are at 3:1 - guaranteed disable, half of the time an X - three per turn for five turns. Or some missiles land on marines, keeping them from stacking, threatening to answer in an overrun. 15 of those, three per turn, is likely enough to tip the table back to a balanced game.

How unbalanced would it be vs a HWZ or MHWZ defense? (Do you care? That scenario begs for GEVs and marines in GEV-PCs. I think that's a fine thing. Most other maps are much drier, but have at least one lake and one river.)

If the marines are too powerful then a limited scope change is to let AP guns fire at half strength underwater. "Ogre drone dirty tricks for this scenario" for background.

Last edited by dwalend; 01-25-2018 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 01-25-2018, 08:21 PM   #9
dwalend
 
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Default Re: Supercavitating OGRE Weapons...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack_JB View Post
If you're going to go the route of accurate future weapons underwater, and worry about making the Ogre too powerful there, then just balance it with the fact that any explosions of nuclear munitions underwater will have vastly more effective outcomes - autokill outcomes.
No keels to snap, so it's not like a nuclear torpedo killing a battleship.

I don't think I can save the crew of the SHVY from the pressure wave, but ogres don't have critical air-filled spaces inside.

Falling into a newly made crater underwater shouldn't be any worse than in the woods.

What kill mechanism are you thinking of?
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Old 01-25-2018, 09:02 PM   #10
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Default Re: Supercavitating OGRE Weapons...

True, there is no pressure hull to breach, but depending on the depth of the Ogre, the pressure wave could still be quite lethal, if not very damaging to the barrels and such. If the water is shallow enough, while the steam plume is expanding upwards, you then target the now exposed Ogre with regular munitions. :>P
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