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Old 02-13-2018, 06:03 AM   #91
Tim Kauffman
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pennsylvania
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Kicking around the rules description for this...please help get this ironed out.

A unit that could have attacked on it's Fire Phase but did not may instead hold it's fire.
Place a "HOLD FIRE" Token on the unit at the end of it's Fire Phase.
Multiple units holding their fire may use a single HOLD FIRE Token as long as it's clear what units are doing so.
OGREs holding their fire have such weapons doing so temporarily marked on their stat cards.

Units holding their fire are attacked normally in overrun combat. Their HOLD FIRE status remains after the overrun is completed.

A unit must have a HOLD FIRE Token on it designating as such in order to use HOLD FIRE. If no Token is placed, no HOLD FIRE is considered.


Question/Suggestion: Should a unit that is holding fire be allowed to use it's HOLD FIRE before it is overrun, and then overrun is resolved normally?

Question/Suggestion: Should a unit that is holding fire be allowed to use it's HOLD FIRE before it is rammed, and then ramming is resolved normally?

Question/Suggestion: How should OGRE weapons holding fire be handled? There are a few variations possible:

1) OGRE weapons may HOLD FIRE but all OGRE weapons must HOLD FIRE as a group. Either all weapons are holding fire or none are.

2) OGRE weapons may HOLD FIRE only if they are of the same type as a group. Main Batteries, Secondary Batteries, AP Guns, External Missiles, Missile Racks.

3) OGRE weapons may HOLD FIRE with any number of it's weapons.

#1 would be the easiest to keep track of and I prefer it but am also favoring #2. That's more tracking, but may be worth it grouped by weapon type. I think #3 would be way too much to handle and track. Imagine tracking AP Guns...imagine a MARK6...

I also think it would be best if GEV attacks against OGREs holding their fire were resolved first and any Xed OGRE weapons or treads would take effect immediately. Then the OGRE holding fire attacks with whatever weapons are left. Otherwise, if it's simultaneous, the OGRE becomes too powerful.
By having the GEV attacks resolved this way, such attacks could reduce the number of OGRE attacks before the OGRE would get to attack the GEVs.

I really like what this does to GEVs vs OGREs. Much more nail-biting suspense from the GEV pilots perspective. It really fills the no-combat gap that I never cared for. Of course this needs play-testing, but my initial sense is it seems to work very well.

After some more play-testing, I noticed you can use HOLD FIRE on units closest to the enemy that are out of move/attack range and not move them any closer while waiting for reinforcements to come up for more combined fire power as you give them Hold Fire, waiting for the enemy to attack at which point you can return HOLD FIRE with more attack strength by maneuvering your units this way. I keep seeing more interesting opportunities for stuff like this. This tactic of course must be considered against the possible better tactic of just outright attacking in the first place instead.
Another example of Hold Fire being used in unexpected cool ways, GEVs can move their 1st Movement Phase then Hold Fire on their Fire Phase then move their Secondary Movement for a maximum move of 7 hexes and be at Hold Fire. This creates some interesting tactical maneuvering I haven't fully explored yet. Basically, you can move a GEV deep into enemy lines, especially behind an OGRE and get to attack if the OGRE and or other units are in range on their Fire Phase.

Question: To be clear, a unit that holds it's fire only gets to use it on the enemy Fire Phase, simultaneously, correct?
And HOLD FIRE counts as that units fire for their own turn, is the correct?
I mean, they wouldn't get to then also make their normal attack on their own fire phase after that would they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianargent View Post
Would hold fire make the PBI even less likely to survive, though?
Right now, once the Other has been brought down to M2, the PBI can stay "behind" the Ogre and the Ogre has to choose to spend a turn not moving to mow then down with AP, or advance towards the objectives. With Hold Fire, the Ogre can just hold fire and attack the infantry as they approach. That's as much of a change as an ME Ones not being able to catch a GEV
You could add Infantry and Marines to the units that would get to attack first in the suggestion rule I mentioned for GEVs vs OGREs. All other units make simultaneous attacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianargent View Post
With Hold Fire, the Ogre can just hold fire and attack the infantry as they approach. That's as much of a change as an ME Ones not being able to catch a GEV
Sorry, can you clarify this...what's a ME?
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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 02-13-2018 at 05:18 PM.
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Old 02-13-2018, 02:41 PM   #92
ianargent
 
Join Date: May 2012
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

ME Ones is a really terrible autocorrect failure for M2 Ogre. My soft keyboard on my phone is being terrible the past month or so, and I didn't notice the typo
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Old 02-13-2018, 04:33 PM   #93
Tim Kauffman
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pennsylvania
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianargent View Post
ME Ones is a really terrible autocorrect failure for M2 Ogre. My soft keyboard on my phone is being terrible the past month or so, and I didn't notice the typo
Roger that.
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:34 PM   #94
ianargent
 
Join Date: May 2012
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

I'm still not sold that an Ogre should be able to hold fire - once the Ogre falls to M2, it's in a lot of trouble in the basic game, and has to make some hard choices about advancing on the objective or sticking around to bring some pain on pursuers. If it can advance and still fire on pursuers "first", that's a big bonus for the Ogre. It never has to make a choice between staying in range of pursuers behind it to shoot, or advancing on the target - It can grind forward 2 and still shoot up pursuing heavy tanks when they approach.

In the general case, being able to hold fire invalidates a lot of the "strike range" calculations built into the game.

It's a gamist mechanic, but it's pretty core to the whole Ogre Feel, IMO.
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Old 02-14-2018, 07:02 PM   #95
Tim Kauffman
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pennsylvania
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

I'm not really sure either. You could have the rule stipulate only non-OGRE units can HOLD FIRE.

HOLD FIRE is simultaneous, which I think works very well because of that. (I would maybe add Infantry, Marines and GEVs get to attack first against units holding fire and their successful attacks are considered and any damage resolved before the units holding fire make their attacks). HOLD FIRE also does not happen as often as I thought it would.

When units are pursuing the OGRE, yes, it can grind forward and shoot them up when they approach...only IF it is holding it's fire. That only happens if it didn't fire in it's Fire Phase. That's another decision to make. So it's actually more things to consider. Likewise, the attacker has more to consider. How many of their units will HOLD FIRE? Where to maneuver them if they are or are not? All this must be considered against the enemy units doing the same.

It's an interesting idea that needs more playtesting.
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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 02-14-2018 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 02-15-2018, 08:41 AM   #96
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianargent View Post
I'm still not sold that an Ogre should be able to hold fire...

In the general case, being able to hold fire invalidates a lot of the "strike range" calculations built into the game.

It's a gamist mechanic, but it's pretty core to the whole Ogre Feel, IMO.
I agree, which is why I was ambivalent about using Hold Fire in straight Ogre games.

The issues that I raised at the beginning of the thread are almost exclusively encountered in GEV games that feature lots of non-Ogre units on both sides and that have more complex scenario objectives than "defend/destroy the CP".

Clearly, Hold Fire will invalidate certain "tactics" and may make some units more or less valuable. My hope is that it is the lowest footprint way to eliminate gamey tactics that bear no resemblance to Real World tactics.
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Old 02-15-2018, 09:04 AM   #97
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Here's an example how Hold Fire would work:

PU Turn 1, Movement Phase: PU heavy tank is undisabled and moves normally.

PU Turn 1, Combat Phase: PU heavy tank is eligible to fire. It forgoes firing and takes a Hold Fire marker instead.

Combine Turn 2, Movement Phase: Combine units overrun PU Heavy tank and overrun combat is handled normally. The Combine units are destroyed and the Heavy Tank survives. It keeps its Hold Fire marker.

Combine Turn 2, Combat Phase: PU heavy tank fires first in the combat phase. Results are assessed at the end of the combat phase, however. Combine units fire and results take effect immediately. Results of PU hold fire then take effect. (So a Combine unit destroyed by hold fire will still get to attack).

PU Turn 3, Movement Phase: PU heavy tank moves normally.

PU Turn 3, Combat Phase: PU heavy tank is eligible to fire. It can either fire, or it can take a new Hold Fire marker. Since its target is within range now, the heavy tanks fires in this phase and eschews the Hold Fire option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
Kicking around the rules description for this...please help get this ironed out.

A unit that could have attacked on it's Fire Phase but did not may instead hold it's fire.
Place a "HOLD FIRE" Token on the unit at the end of it's Fire Phase.
Multiple units holding their fire may use a single HOLD FIRE Token as long as it's clear what units are doing so.
OGREs holding their fire have such weapons doing so temporarily marked on their stat cards.

Units holding their fire are attacked normally in overrun combat. Their HOLD FIRE status remains after the overrun is completed.

A unit must have a HOLD FIRE Token on it designating as such in order to use HOLD FIRE. If no Token is placed, no HOLD FIRE is considered.
Correct so far.

Quote:
Question/Suggestion: Should a unit that is holding fire be allowed to use it's HOLD FIRE before it is overrun, and then overrun is resolved normally?
No. Frankly, Hold Fire is unnecessary since the non-moving unit gets the first shot (and at far greater lethality - D results are counted as X results). Overrun attacks are expensive for the attacker as-is.

Quote:
Question/Suggestion: Should a unit that is holding fire be allowed to use it's HOLD FIRE before it is rammed, and then ramming is resolved normally?
I don't recall when the ram occurs in OGRE, but I'd say no. But remember that ramming is an Ogre rule. In GEV, it's replaced by overrun combat. And as noted, I'm ambivalent about retrofitting Hold Fire to straight up Ogre games.

Quote:
Question/Suggestion: How should OGRE weapons holding fire be handled? There are a few variations possible:

1) OGRE weapons may HOLD FIRE but all OGRE weapons must HOLD FIRE as a group. Either all weapons are holding fire or none are.

2) OGRE weapons may HOLD FIRE only if they are of the same type as a group. Main Batteries, Secondary Batteries, AP Guns, External Missiles, Missile Racks.
I don't like either of these solutions.

Quote:
3) OGRE weapons may HOLD FIRE with any number of it's weapons.
This would be my preference, particularly for GEV games.

Quote:
After some more play-testing, I noticed you can use HOLD FIRE on units closest to the enemy that are out of move/attack range and not move them any closer while waiting for reinforcements to come up for more combined fire power as you give them Hold Fire, waiting for the enemy to attack at which point you can return HOLD FIRE with more attack strength by maneuvering your units this way. I keep seeing more interesting opportunities for stuff like this. This tactic of course must be considered against the possible better tactic of just outright attacking in the first place instead.
Another example of Hold Fire being used in unexpected cool ways, GEVs can move their 1st Movement Phase then Hold Fire on their Fire Phase then move their Secondary Movement for a maximum move of 7 hexes and be at Hold Fire. This creates some interesting tactical maneuvering I haven't fully explored yet. Basically, you can move a GEV deep into enemy lines, especially behind an OGRE and get to attack if the OGRE and or other units are in range on their Fire Phase.
The purpose of Hold Fire (and its cousin, Opportunity Fire/Overwatch Fire) is to enable game board tactics that resemble Real World tactics. Your experience validates that it works, at least to some extent.

Quote:
Question: To be clear, a unit that holds it's fire only gets to use it on the enemy Fire Phase, simultaneously, correct?
Correct

Quote:
And HOLD FIRE counts as that units fire for their own turn, is the correct?
Correct.

Quote:
I mean, they wouldn't get to then also make their normal attack on their own fire phase after that would they?
See example above.

Quote:
You could add Infantry and Marines to the units that would get to attack first in the suggestion rule I mentioned for GEVs vs OGREs. All other units make simultaneous attacks.


Sorry, can you clarify this...what's a ME?
You can modify the rule with various exceptions, such as allowing certain units to fire first, but it becomes a very different rule. I personally favor as little alteration as possible, while addressing the implausible tactics I listed at the beginning of the thread.

My suggestion is to play the rule a few times as I wrote it. Then add tweaks one at a time and test them, one at at time. If they (a) make the game less fun or (b) enable implausible tactics, then I'd ditch them. If they make the game more fun and don't enable implausible tactics, I'd keep them.

Now if you want a very different experience, invert the combat phases. I.e., PU moves, Combine fires. Then Combine moves, PU fires. That would largely alleviate the need for Hold Fire mechanics.

It is also a reasonable combat sequence, considering that even today, tanks with modern stabilized guns can move and fire without serious degradation. This means that moving overwatch becomes feasible. In 70 years, I'd expect for movement to have no effect whatsoever on firing.

But it would be a very different game.

Last edited by tbeard1999; 02-15-2018 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:47 PM   #98
selenite
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

An alternate Hold Fire rule:

A unit that does not move or fire on its turn may "Hold Fire." That unit may fire during a following enemy movement phase against an enemy unit moving OUT of a hex in range. The attack is resolved before the enemy unit enters the next hex. If the enemy overruns the unit the Hold Fire attack counts as the first overrun round. Units with multiple weapons (SHVY, Ogre) may only Hold Fire if none of their weapons fire.

Example: A GEV and MSL are five hexes apart. The MSL holds fire. The GEV moves one hex closer, now in range of the MSL, but the MSL can't fire. Then the GEV moves another hex closer, allowing the MSL to use its Hold Fire.

***

This allows a MSL to fire on an approaching GEV or HVY and INF to fire at units trying to bypass them. It doesn't let Ogres or GEVs play some of the games discussed above. And when units with equal ranges face off the moving one can fire first.
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Old 02-16-2018, 08:37 PM   #99
Macunaima
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Nova Brasília
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

I like that hidden unit rule and, as mentioned above, it does less potential damage to the ogre system.
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Old 02-16-2018, 09:40 PM   #100
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by selenite View Post
An alternate Hold Fire rule
...
That might be an interesting rule, but it doesn’t really address the issues that I raised at the beginning of the thread. I also don’t see it as being any less intrusive than the standard Hold Fire rule. But, if it’s fun and you like it, I’d say go with it.

EDIT - I forgot to mention that modern AFVs with advanced stabilization systems can fire on the move with little degradation in their hit probability. By 2085, I’d expect that moving would have no measurable effect on targeting. So there’s really no plausible reason to limit Hold Fire to units that didn’t move.

Last edited by tbeard1999; 02-16-2018 at 09:52 PM.
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