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Old 01-27-2018, 04:10 PM   #21
TheAmishStig
 
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broadway Phil View Post
I knew not having the rules in front of me was a mistake. Of course "if not disabled by terrain" should be added. But I would be confused by the references to beach hexes, and avoided them as much as possible. I thought the whole idea of marsh was to provide a transition from clear terrain (etc.) to swamp in the same manner as beaches do from clear terrain (etc.) to water.

Phil
No worries, the bullet points were all to make sure I understood what you were going for, map out how some permutations would play, and serve as a 'Hey, this might be an unintended consequence of the phrasing'.

What I wasn't sure about was if "The 'stop no matter what' rule still applies it comes from anything other than Swamp / Marsh" was your intent or not, and saw a potential loophole in the "from swamp/marsh to swamp/marsh" phrasing.

The rest was trying to make it sound like it belonged in a rulebook, but GranitePenguin's point about not requiring a 'go to this other bit for the rest of the rules' lookup is a point well taken...it's something that annoys the crap out of me in the Shadowrun 4E/5E books, and I'm ashamed I fell for it. Can't say I'm not learning a lot about the finer points of writing rules for others to read, beyond simply writing rules for play purposes, though!

Nth verse, same as the first? "Marsh is a form of Swamp. A GEV entering a Marsh is required to make a 'disabled by terrain' roll, but is not required to stop due to terrain if it succeeds on that roll. A GEV is not required to stop before transitioning between a Water hax and a Marsh hex, or vice-versa. If a road or railroad passes through the Marsh hex, a GEV may gain the road bonus in the same manner as a road/RR in a Beach hex. For all other purposes, treat Marsh as Swamp."

I admit to being tempted to go as far as "A GEV entering a marsh is not required to make a 'disabled by terrain' roll"...which would get rid of the "Has to stop when you make that roll, except in this one edge case" problem, but I'm afraid is going to end up too powerful, and too easily abused to create a new Fuzzy Wuzzy situation. The risk of being disabled by the terrain ameliorates that at least somewhat.
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Old 01-28-2018, 12:37 AM   #22
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

2.01.10 Marsh. "A Marsh hex is filled with low lying vegetation and considered to be a Water hex (2.01.6) for movement purposes with no movement bonus and a Swamp hex (2.01.5) for disable rolls. For transitioning purposes only into or out of Marsh, it is considered Beach (2.01.9)."

Making it a Water hex instead of a Swamp hex for movement may be more interesting because it cost 1 to move into water and 2 to move into Swamp. It makes Marsh a much less dense form of Swamp, which is actually what one is. As a generalization and description of what Marsh is in OGRE, Swamp has trees and Marsh does not.

This may be something to consider.

Also, while I agree we should strive to word the Marsh rules as a stand alone rule not requiring any references to other rules like Beach, I don't agree doing so in any way should disqualify the Marsh Terrain as something that should not exist or that doing so is setting someone else up to "fall" for using rules this way. That sounds vindictive and not at all my intent in presenting and iterating the Marsh concept.
The Official Terrain rules are replete with examples mentioning other Terrain types to explain properties of a specific Terrain type. Not exactly the same thing of course, but there it is.

In my phrasing when using the Beach rule and then stating it is used "For transitioning purposes only", makes it clear and concise. Of course, maybe I'm missing something and other implications.
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Old 01-29-2018, 11:32 AM   #23
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

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Originally Posted by TheAmishStig View Post
Nth verse, same as the first? "Marsh is a form of Swamp. A GEV entering a Marsh is required to make a 'disabled by terrain' roll, but is not required to stop due to terrain if it succeeds on that roll. A GEV is not required to stop before transitioning between a Water hax and a Marsh hex, or vice-versa. If a road or railroad passes through the Marsh hex, a GEV may gain the road bonus in the same manner as a road/RR in a Beach hex. For all other purposes, treat Marsh as Swamp."
Drop the part about road/RR bonus being intact. The original point of marsh was to simply negate the water's "you must stop at the edge" clause. This also brings up the reminder: Is this supposed to be a full-hex thing, or a hex-side thing (it started out has hexside terrain)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
2.01.10 Marsh. "A Marsh hex is filled with low lying vegetation and considered to be a Water hex (2.01.6) for movement purposes with no movement bonus and a Swamp hex (2.01.5) for disable rolls. For transitioning purposes only into or out of Marsh, it is considered Beach (2.01.9)."
In a word: yuck.

I don't know if you are going out of your way to prove a point by making the entire rule pieces of other rules, but that's just confusing. Maybe those are the bullet points for what you want it to be, but it needs to be articulated more cleanly; especially around how the transition is expected to behave (considering part of the point of beaches is to maintain the road bonus, which you explicitly are not).
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Old 01-29-2018, 03:13 PM   #24
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
Drop the part about road/RR bonus being intact. The original point of marsh was to simply negate the water's "you must stop at the edge" clause. This also brings up the reminder: Is this supposed to be a full-hex thing, or a hex-side thing (it started out has hexside terrain)?
10-4...I'm not exactly attached to that part. It made sense to copy-paste from Broadway Phil's take on it given that it's a property of the only other tile that allows water <-> land without stopping, but ultimately it's not something I have any conviction towards.

My understanding of the issue at play is that we're looking for a way to transition between water and coastal wetlands (such as a river delta / bayou / etc) without stopping at the edge, since in that situation it doesn't make real-world-analogue sense to skim across the surface of the water and then have to full-stop before continuing to skim across the surface of the water...that the 'stop' rule conceptually represents the delay in climbing river banks and shorelines that aren't conducive to landings.

From there it's kinda grown and evolved since I first proposed the Marsh hexside as a solution (and coined the name). You brought up concerns about the ramifications of printing hexsides [as to really take off they'd have to be printed for the game], as well as the ramifications of using Beaches or Ramps to achieve the effect, which is what led me to suggest something dedicated. Broadway Phil had a stroke of brilliance in suggesting "Variant of Swamp, instead of dedicated anything", which eliminated the need to make special overlays just for Marshes, either ovals or hexes.

N+1th verse: "Marsh is a variant of Swamp. A GEV entering a Marsh is required to make a 'disabled by terrain' roll, but is not required to stop due to terrain if it succeeds on that roll. A GEV is not required to stop before transitioning between a Water hax and a Marsh hex, or vice-versa. For all other purposes, treat a Marsh hex as if it is a Swamp hex."
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Old 01-29-2018, 03:22 PM   #25
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

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Originally Posted by TheAmishStig View Post
N+1th verse: "Marsh is a variant of Swamp. A GEV entering a Marsh is required to make a 'disabled by terrain' roll, but is not required to stop due to terrain if it succeeds on that roll. A GEV is not required to stop before transitioning between a Water hax and a Marsh hex, or vice-versa. For all other purposes, treat a Marsh hex as if it is a Swamp hex."
So an interesting quirk of this attempt... Marsh becomes the only terrain type that can cause a disable roll, but does not stop movement for the turn. That doesn't sound like a good idea. GEVs are very fragile and have to stop all the time when entering just about every terrain on the map. Why should Marsh be any different?
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Old 01-29-2018, 05:03 PM   #26
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
So an interesting quirk of this attempt... Marsh becomes the only terrain type that can cause a disable roll, but does not stop movement for the turn. That doesn't sound like a good idea. GEVs are very fragile and have to stop all the time when entering just about every terrain on the map. Why should Marsh be any different?
That was something I was worried about a couple posts ago, yeah...cut that particular brain-dump in proofreading because it meandered way too much. My concern is a balance one...striving to keep it to where it serves its purpose mechanically, serves its purpose conceptually, without being way too powerful. I'm not sure I like any of the ways of handling it, to be honest.

My concern with removing the roll entirely means the GEVs...even though their movement is reduced to 2-1...are getting a lot of free shots every time a pursuing non-GEV ends up disabled by terrain. For a small pocket of marsh/swamp where the pursuer can go around, or hang out at the edges taking potshots, that's not a big deal, but for maps that use them as their main feature...NAC protecting a refinery in the Louisiana Bayou, Nihon marching through the Monsoon-soaked islands of the Pacific Rim, or the savage fighting in the general yuck of the Amazon Combat Zone...that could prove scenario-breaking to the point players would be literally playing GEV(s only). Maybe I'm not giving light tracked units enough credit, and my concerns are moot enough that we can say "GEVs are not required to make 'Disabled by Terrain' rolls in a Marsh" and leave it at that, but that's why I'm leery enough to suggest what I did with the artifact it has.

My concern with keeping the roll and the stop penalty is that it ceases to be distinct enough to justify its existence. At that point it's better served as a hexside, which we've already ruled out as being too fiddly in a real-world logistical sense.

At that point, that really only leaves two options: Doing something other than "Remove the roll entirely" to make it worthwhile as a full hex (unless killing the roll entirely pans out in playtesting, at which point go with it because consistent rules are awesome), or resign ourselves to leaving the potential for interesting scenarios/engagements on the table.

Picture a battle where a pack of GEVs have lured a pursuing force into the sweet spot where the armor chasing them can get bogged down, but their own mobility hasn't been completely hindered...ducking and weaving through a flood plain at half throttle, picking off the mired-down stragglers of a force desperately trying to forge into the yuck to get an objective deep in the heart of the awful, soggy blech...right up until one of the GEVs finds a spot shallow enough to throw a GEV into the air, disorienting its crew and allowing the armor to pounce...that's what I'm trying to enable by sticking with it.

It's probably a fool's errand, and may never reach the point where it's distinct enough to justify its existence and refined enough to be playable, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying getting to exercise my brain.

Am I not giving light tracked armor enough credit?
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Old 02-02-2018, 02:16 PM   #27
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
The original point of marsh was to simply negate the water's "you must stop at the edge" clause. This also brings up the reminder: Is this supposed to be a full-hex thing, or a hex-side thing (it started out has hexside terrain)?
It started out as a hex-side concept because it was viewed as just being a Beach variant. This meant it could be a 1 hex-side up to full-hex size. Which I really like the idea of. It covers all possibilities like a Beach hex.
However, I also think hex-side is ultimately too complicated. It would offer more and interesting options but too much added complexity. It would also add a bucket full of new terrain that would need made to represent all those hex-sided variations. We don't even have all the Beach ones available yet.

Full-hex is my choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
In a word: yuck.

I don't know if you are going out of your way to prove a point by making the entire rule pieces of other rules, but that's just confusing. Maybe those are the bullet points for what you want it to be, but it needs to be articulated more cleanly; especially around how the transition is expected to behave (considering part of the point of beaches is to maintain the road bonus, which you explicitly are not).
All of the above and guilty as charged. :)

By any and all means if anyone can word it more concisely please do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
So an interesting quirk of this attempt... Marsh becomes the only terrain type that can cause a disable roll, but does not stop movement for the turn. That doesn't sound like a good idea. GEVs are very fragile and have to stop all the time when entering just about every terrain on the map. Why should Marsh be any different?
As I mentioned earlier...in the context of it being used in OGRE, Marsh is low lying vegetation and Swamp also has trees. It is in between both in the sense that a GEV does not have to stop before entering, but once in the hex, it is considered Swamp and a Disable Roll is required. It is a Light Swamp in a way. Even though Marsh is not Swamp, it has the same Disabling possibility which is explained as Marsh having potential areas within it's hex that can be as slowing to a GEV as a Swamp hex. For example, the low lying vegetation is particularly thick where the Disable Roll is failed. If the Roll is made, the GEV successfully navigated around it.

This is also why it was suggested earlier to maybe have a lower Disable chance for Marsh. I would agree with that and like the suggestion, but it's adding more rules. In this case, I think it may be worth having, but to keep it simple, I'd say don't. Also because if you have a lower Disable chance, I think it's making the Marsh too powerful.

As to it not sounding like a good idea because Marsh is the only terrain that does not require a GEV to stop before entering, but still requires a Disable Roll, this is exactly why I think it is a good idea. Again I point to my QUAGMIRE/QUAGMIRE! Scenarios that use the Marsh "bug" where they do not have to stop before entering Swamp. If that "bug" is removed from the game, those Scenarios will be half as fun as they are atm with it. It's not just my Scenarios, because it could be used in other ones obviously. This is that big of a deal Imho.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAmishStig View Post
My concern is a balance one...striving to keep it to where it serves its purpose mechanically, serves its purpose conceptually, without being way too powerful. I'm not sure I like any of the ways of handling it, to be honest.
Agreed. This is tricky to articulate, but I am convinced it can be forged into a proper new terrain type. We just have to keep exploring its permutations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAmishStig View Post
My concern with removing the roll entirely means the GEVs...even though their movement is reduced to 2-1...are getting a lot of free shots every time a pursuing non-GEV ends up disabled by terrain. For a small pocket of marsh/swamp where the pursuer can go around, or hang out at the edges taking potshots, that's not a big deal, but for maps that use them as their main feature...NAC protecting a refinery in the Louisiana Bayou, Nihon marching through the Monsoon-soaked islands of the Pacific Rim, or the savage fighting in the general yuck of the Amazon Combat Zone...that could prove scenario-breaking to the point players would be literally playing GEV(s only). Maybe I'm not giving light tracked units enough credit, and my concerns are moot enough that we can say "GEVs are not required to make 'Disabled by Terrain' rolls in a Marsh" and leave it at that, but that's why I'm leery enough to suggest what I did with the artifact it has.

My concern with keeping the roll and the stop penalty is that it ceases to be distinct enough to justify its existence. At that point it's better served as a hexside, which we've already ruled out as being too fiddly in a real-world logistical sense.

At that point, that really only leaves two options: Doing something other than "Remove the roll entirely" to make it worthwhile as a full hex (unless killing the roll entirely pans out in playtesting, at which point go with it because consistent rules are awesome), or resign ourselves to leaving the potential for interesting scenarios/engagements on the table.

Picture a battle where a pack of GEVs have lured a pursuing force into the sweet spot where the armor chasing them can get bogged down, but their own mobility hasn't been completely hindered...ducking and weaving through a flood plain at half throttle, picking off the mired-down stragglers of a force desperately trying to forge into the yuck to get an objective deep in the heart of the awful, soggy blech...right up until one of the GEVs finds a spot shallow enough to throw a GEV into the air, disorienting its crew and allowing the armor to pounce...that's what I'm trying to enable by sticking with it.
Yes. It brings new dynamic gameplay to battles giving GEVs more "character". Swamps are still Swamps. This is exactly why I prefer keeping the Disable Roll in. This is also what makes it unique enough and worthy enough to be a viable new terrain type in the game in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAmishStig View Post
It's probably a fool's errand, and may never reach the point where it's distinct enough to justify its existence and refined enough to be playable, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying getting to exercise my brain.
I think we fairly well have the main concept down.

MARSH
Full-hex.
GEVs do not have to stop when entering.
GEVs are considered to be in Swamp when they have entered MARSH.

I reference my Yucky iteration as a basis to work from (this is what it is trying to do at least):

2.01.10 Marsh. "A Marsh hex is filled with low lying vegetation and considered to be a Water hex (2.01.6) for movement purposes with no movement bonus and a Swamp hex (2.01.5) for disable rolls. For transitioning purposes only into or out of Marsh, it is considered Beach (2.01.9)."
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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 02-02-2018 at 02:27 PM.
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