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Old 01-14-2018, 01:10 AM   #11
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

The new and updated QUAGMIRE (using OGRE Rules, no Stacking and Beaches with Swamp) and QUAGMIRE! (using GEV Rules with Stacking and Beaches with Swamp) have been republished over in the WorkShop on STEAM.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile...?id=1268876514

Both Scenarios still retain the "bug" that allows GEVs to use Beach hexsides and not have to stop before entering Swamp. So, if you want to see how "Marsh" works in these Scenarios, head over and give them a playthrough. If you do, please report back here and let us know what you think.
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Old 01-19-2018, 12:08 AM   #12
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

...or could it work instead by saying that GEVs do not have to stop when entering or leaving Swamp? All other rules for Swamp still apply.

...or instead of Marsh hexsides and all that "fiddly" stuff, we could simply have a full hex size Marsh only which would allow GEVs to not have to stop before entering or leaving. This would only be one new Terrain Token, a lighter green and less dense Swamp looking Terrain hex.

We could rephrase the official rule something to the affect that Swamp and Marsh are neither considered Water or Land. Thus GEVs moving from or into a Water hex that is either from or into a Swamp or Marsh hex does not affect there movement. All other rules still apply.

It's late as I write this, so maybe this is too far out there. Apologies if so.
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Old 01-19-2018, 03:17 PM   #13
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
...or could it work instead by saying that GEVs do not have to stop when entering or leaving Swamp? All other rules for Swamp still apply.

...or instead of Marsh hexsides and all that "fiddly" stuff, we could simply have a full hex size Marsh only which would allow GEVs to not have to stop before entering or leaving. This would only be one new Terrain Token, a lighter green and less dense Swamp looking Terrain hex.

We could rephrase the official rule something to the affect that Swamp and Marsh are neither considered Water or Land. Thus GEVs moving from or into a Water hex that is either from or into a Swamp or Marsh hex does not affect there movement. All other rules still apply.

It's late as I write this, so maybe this is too far out there. Apologies if so.
Not too far out; the problem is what's the order of precedence? Are the rules for water of a higher priority, or the rules for swamp/marsh?

This also points out an interesting quirk. The rules for water stopping movement is the only place where the behavior of the terrain you are _in_ dictates what happens when you try to leave. Changing 5.08.2 really put some wrinkles in a lot of places.
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Old 01-21-2018, 03:50 AM   #14
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
Not too far out; the problem is what's the order of precedence? Are the rules for water of a higher priority, or the rules for swamp/marsh?

This also points out an interesting quirk. The rules for water stopping movement is the only place where the behavior of the terrain you are _in_ dictates what happens when you try to leave. Changing 5.08.2 really put some wrinkles in a lot of places.
"A GEV approaching the edge of a body of water must end its movement phase at the edge of the water, and may not move onto (or leave) the water until its next movement phase, as though it were crossing a stream. Note: By passing through a beach hexside (2.01.9), GEVs may transition from water to land, or vice versa, without stopping at the edge of the water. If a road or railroad passes through the beach hex, a GEV may move from road/RR to water or vice versa and get a road bonus for that phase, if and only if it passes through the beach hexside."
Exception: Marsh is the same as Beach for transitioning purposes and considered to be a six-sided Beach hex.
Otherwise Marsh is the same as Swamp. Thus, GEVs may move into Marsh without stopping before entering,
but otherwise are then considered to be in Swamp.


...it's late again...lol
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Old 01-26-2018, 01:03 AM   #15
Broadway Phil
 
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

The iteration above has the value of simplicity, which is what one wants in Ogre, but I think I can go it one better:

Marsh is a form of Swamp. GEVs do not have to stop before entering a Marsh hex, or when moving from a Marsh or Swamp hex to an adjacent Marsh or Swamp hex. If a road or railroad passes through the Marsh hex, a GEV may gain the road bonus in the same manner as a road/RR in a Beach hex. For all other purposes, treat Marsh as Swamp.


This has the added advantage of flexibility: for instance, all or some printed swamp hexes could be declared to be marsh in a particular scenario, without needing overlays.

Phil

Last edited by Broadway Phil; 01-26-2018 at 01:19 AM.
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Old 01-26-2018, 02:03 AM   #16
ColBosch
 
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

I can dig that wording.
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Old 01-26-2018, 03:02 PM   #17
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

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Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
I can dig that wording.
I love where he's going with it, but have a concern about unintended consequences...namely that as written it seems to overrule the existing "Must stop if there's a Disabled By Terrain roll" for not just Marshes, but destination Swamps as well...but only if coming from a Marsh or Swamp.

Or to put it another way...the way it's worded:

Clear -> Marsh: Must stop.
Clear -> Swamp: Must stop.
Marsh -> Swamp: May continue onward if not disabled by terrain.
Swamp -> Marsh: May continue onward if not disabled by terrain.

Would we better off with this, instead?

Marsh is a form of Swamp. A GEV entering a Marsh is not subject to the "Units which enter terrain that may disable them must stop" rule. When a Marsh borders a Water hex, GEVs treat the bordering hexsides as Beach Hexsides.
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Old 01-26-2018, 09:45 PM   #18
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
"A GEV approaching the edge of a body of water must end its movement phase at the edge of the water, and may not move onto (or leave) the water until its next movement phase, as though it were crossing a stream. Note: By passing through a beach hexside (2.01.9), GEVs may transition from water to land, or vice versa, without stopping at the edge of the water. If a road or railroad passes through the beach hex, a GEV may move from road/RR to water or vice versa and get a road bonus for that phase, if and only if it passes through the beach hexside."
Exception: Marsh is the same as Beach for transitioning purposes and considered to be a six-sided Beach hex. Otherwise Marsh is the same as Swamp. Thus, GEVs may move into Marsh without stopping before entering, but otherwise are then considered to be in Swamp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broadway Phil View Post
Marsh is a form of Swamp. GEVs do not have to stop before entering a Marsh hex, or when moving from a Marsh or Swamp hex to an adjacent Marsh or Swamp hex. If a road or railroad passes through the Marsh hex, a GEV may gain the road bonus in the same manner as a road/RR in a Beach hex. For all other purposes, treat Marsh as Swamp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAmishStig View Post
I love where he's going with it, but have a concern about unintended consequences...namely that as written it seems to overrule the existing "Must stop if there's a Disabled By Terrain roll" for not just Marshes, but destination Swamps as well...but only if coming from a Marsh or Swamp.

Or to put it another way...the way it's worded:

Clear -> Marsh: Must stop.
Clear -> Swamp: Must stop.
Marsh -> Swamp: May continue onward if not disabled by terrain.
Swamp -> Marsh: May continue onward if not disabled by terrain.

Would we better off with this, instead?

Marsh is a form of Swamp. A GEV entering a Marsh is not subject to the "Units which enter terrain that may disable them must stop" rule. When a Marsh borders a Water hex, GEVs treat the bordering hexsides as Beach Hexsides.
How about this:

Marsh is considered a six hex-sided Beach hex for GEV transitioning with the exception no matter what terrain hex it is next to a GEV moving from those hexes into the Marsh hex or moving from the Marsh hex to those hexes does not have to stop before entering unless it fails it's disable roll if one is required. A Marsh is always a full-size hex. It is not actually beach anywhere in it's hex, but rather the transitional meeting line that acts as beach between both hex-sides of the Marsh and any other terrain.

Thus, a GEV moving from: Marsh}Marsh, Marsh}Swamp, Swamp}Marsh, Marsh}Clear, Clear}Marsh, Marsh}Forest, Forest}Marsh, Marsh}Town, Town}Marsh, Marsh}Rubble, Rubble}Marsh does not have to stop before entering unless it fails it's disable roll.

A Marsh is the same no matter what the adjacent hex terrain is. Water, Marsh and Swamp can be assumed to be on the same water level. All other terrain can be assumed to be compatible with Marsh in the sense a transitional level is created between the two hex-sides that are on the same level. In other words, Marsh next to other terrain morphs that terrain to be compatible and on the same level as the Marsh creating that even transition between the two.

I'm trying to keep this as KISS as possible.
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Old 01-27-2018, 02:21 AM   #19
Broadway Phil
 
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

I knew not having the rules in front of me was a mistake. Of course "if not disabled by terrain" should be added. But I would be confused by the references to beach hexes, and avoided them as much as possible. I thought the whole idea of marsh was to provide a transition from clear terrain (etc.) to swamp in the same manner as beaches do from clear terrain (etc.) to water.

Phil
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Old 01-27-2018, 07:55 AM   #20
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

Absolutely. If you are going down this road, you do not want to reference other terrain types to explain the terrain you are discussing (i.e., discussions of what a marsh does should not include any reference to beaches).

If you can't clearly define the terrain on its own merits, you are either doing it wrong or it's a good indicator it shouldn't exist.
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