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Old 01-09-2018, 11:39 PM   #1
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

Recently, over in the incredibly fun (but buggy) OGRE PC version on STEAM, I updated my custom scenario QUAGMIRE that uses Water, Swamp and Town Terrain. Paneurope has demolishioned a water-mitigation system to flood the advancing Combine offensive in desperation. It worked with devastating results. The area was suddenly geoengineered into a swampy waterway where Paneurope now has the advantage and GEV patrols from Paneurope and Combine prowl and hunt one another. They are the best units for the mission. Inspired by Drew's Dambuster Rules and the artwork on the front cover of OGREzine.

Originally, there were two versions of the same map, one used OGRE rules, no stacking, the other used GEV rules with stacking. Terrain for this scenario became a integral part of the gameplay, much more so than normal. GEVs had to stop before entering Swamp or Town. Town gave them double defense while Swamp with it's chance for Disable gave no defensive bonus, but moving into it became a useful option to get more GEVs situated to get in range for an attack, or in an attempt to get away from the enemy. It was a nice wrinkle in the game play tactical options. The scenario is entirely cat and mouse tactics and the Swamp and Town Terrain is a natural barrier that can be used for tactical advantage. (Town represents water damage to heavier Terrain from the flooding and is not actual Town).

As fun as it was to play, something was missing and I didn't know what.

Then I thought the unthinkable and went back and updated the map by adding BEACH Overlays around all the Swamp Tiles. This then allowed GEVs to not have to stop before entering Swamp like before. I reasoned this was not actually a Beach in this case, but rather represented a Swamp that was easier to enter from it's border, yet retained all of a Swamps rules otherwise.
I found WIKI state: "The two main types of swamp are "true" or swamp forests and "transitional" or shrub swamps." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrub_swamp
The "Beach/Swamp" I reasoned represented the "transitional" Swamp.

This slight altering of a Swamps rule to be a different Swamp type (Light Swamp?) created a very interesting difference in the scenario for the GEV pilots to choose from when making their tactical decisions. Now, they could either go for the double defense of a Town after having to stop first, before entering, to then get the defense bonus or on that same turn get closer to the enemy one extra Tile by moving into a "Light Swamp" Tile since they would not have to stop before entering. But there was a chance at becoming Disabled. The tension these options now created complimented this scenario perfectly making it rise above more than just the sum of it's parts.

This was such a simple yet profound change to the gameplay that made it play so much better that I immediately deleted both my Quagmire scenarios and made the new QUAGMIRE scenario using BEACH Overlays around all the Swamp Tiles.

Then, I realized something wasn't right. I went to the OGRE Discussion Forums and asked if this was proper behavior for Swamp Terrain. Our GranitePenguin kindly informed me it was not and as such was a bug. My jaw kind of hit the floor...oh...noooo.

So there it is. A new use for "BEACH" Overlays/Hexes/Tiles. I also then realized that there are many real life cases of Beaches being near Cities/Towns, and Forests. Since Rubble is a destroyed Town, they should work with this Terrain as well. Swamp is a special case, in which it would not really be Beach, but a less dense border around the Swamp, easier to enter, but the Swamp rules would remain otherwise.

I was fortunate to be able to play through the updated QUAGMIRE using "Light Swamp" Tiles before they were rebooted back to the "official" rules where GEVs have to stop before entering them after I mentioned this in the OGRE Forums on STEAM. Silly me... ;) While playing with them in this scenario, "Light Swamp" certainly felt like "official" Terrain. They really turned a fun scenario up to 11. Just this simple rule addition.

I think such new "Beach" Terrain would compliment the game because they would give players more tactical choices when considering Terrain usage in a battle without adding useless complexity. The simple addition that Swamp, Forest, Town and Rubble can be moved into by GEVs without stopping first really opens up more diverse scenario map layouts and unit composition options than if they were not usable in the game.

It's a logical extension and follow-through of the Beach Hex.

Please lets kick this around some and see how viable it would be.

What do you think?
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Old 01-10-2018, 09:41 AM   #2
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

The first thing to address is the fact the current rules for beaches list them as full-hex terrain, not hex-side terrain (clear with a beach edge). Applying it to other terrain types would mean a clear redefinition of what a beach is.

I do agree that there are plenty of examples in nature of beaches with other terrain types (eg, forests), but in the context where this originally came up (swamp), it doesn't necessarily make sense to use "beach" to represent it.

The next thing to address is what game element is really being added? The core element that is trying to be "fixed" is allowing a GEV to ignore a water/land transition's "stream effect" where the GEV has to start next to the transition to move across. There actually _is_ a hex-side terrain that accomplishes this already (sort of): ramps.

Ramps are technically just extensions of roads into water (2.03.1); there isn't an _actual_ terrain type, but they do exist. There's nothing stopping you from putting a ramp in a hex with no road to get the same effect.

So the real question would be, are ramps sufficient to cover the need, or would it make sense to add a true hex-side type that can be used between any land/water transition?
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Old 01-10-2018, 10:46 PM   #3
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
The first thing to address is the fact the current rules for beaches list them as full-hex terrain, not hex-side terrain (clear with a beach edge). Applying it to other terrain types would mean a clear redefinition of what a beach is.
They are referred to as a "Beach Hex" and are Clear Terrain hexes. However, you can only use the Beach Terrain and it's benefit if the unit that is moving through the Beach hex uses a side that has a Beach "hexside".
The rule also states that Beach hexes "appear only on overlays". So, they are overlays. The overlay hexes officially available have one, two and three "hexsides" of Beach. This clearly means technically, Beaches are essentially hexside overlays which a hex can have up to six hex sides be Beach. They would be like the Ridge overlay for example as far as shape and size, but be Beach colored and used the same when placing them. (Like in the PC Game before this "Bug" was removed).

Applying this to Terrain other than Swamp would actually not redefine what a Beach is, it would still be a Beach on the hexsides of: Forest, Town, and Rubble. Even Swamp would use the same rule, the only difference here is it would need a cosmetic change from a Beach colored hexside overlay to a lighter green colored Swamp color showing it's not a Beach but a less dense Swamp border, otherwise using the same rules. So, Swamp is the only one that is technically not using a Beach overlay in this case.
It would be useful here to simply call the light green overlays "Marsh". Swamp has trees, ect. while Marsh has low lying vegetation.
Marsh hexside overlays would work the same as Beach hexside overlays, they would just be colored light green and placed on Swamp hexsides. You could also have full-hex Marsh Terrain Tokens with up to six hexsides being Marsh and not need to use the Marsh overlays on Swamp instead. The full-size Marsh Terrain would look the same as Swamp with any Marsh hexsides being a light green. Basically, the same treatment that Beach Terrain Tokens were given.

"2.01.9 Beach. A beach hex is a clear hex which borders a water hex, and includes at least one hexside which is hard, flat, and gently sloped from
water to land. These “beach hexsides” are shown in tan. Beach hexes appear only on overlays, for use in scenarios. Beach is treated as ordinary clear terrain for all purposes. Exception: GEVs may move through a beach hexside from land to water, or vice versa, without ending the turn at the edge of the water. If a road or railroad passes through the beach hex, a GEV may move from road/RR to water or vice versa and get a road bonus for that phase, if and only if it passes through the beach hexside."


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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
I do agree that there are plenty of examples in nature of beaches with other terrain types (eg, forests), but in the context where this originally came up (swamp), it doesn't necessarily make sense to use "beach" to represent it.
I agree, Swamp is the only edge case here, Swamps don't have Beaches. In this case I suggest calling it Marsh. The Marsh would be colored light green, but otherwise uses the Beach rules.

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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
The next thing to address is what game element is really being added? The core element that is trying to be "fixed" is allowing a GEV to ignore a water/land transition's "stream effect" where the GEV has to start next to the transition to move across. There actually _is_ a hex-side terrain that accomplishes this already (sort of): ramps.
I'm not trying to "fix" anything. Nothing is broken. The suggestion is simply trying to add complimenting new Terrain without useless complexity. I gave the example of my QUAGMIRE scenario. Having "Marsh" instead of Swamp where GEVs don't have to stop before entering turned that scenario from fun up to 11. It was incredible how just a simple thing would do that. "Marsh" usable on Swamp and "Beach" usable on Forest, Town and Rubble in the game would give players more choices of Terrain which would create more dynamic and fun games. Because Terrain is as important as the units in OGRE, adding these would open up more scenario possibilities.

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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
Ramps are technically just extensions of roads into water (2.03.1); there isn't an _actual_ terrain type, but they do exist. There's nothing stopping you from putting a ramp in a hex with no road to get the same effect.
But these are not man-made Ramps, they are terrain. I'd like to have the Terrain look like what it really is representing in game. Using Ramps also become a problem because units on them ignore underlying terrain.

"2.03 Roads and railroads. These features always run through the center of hexes. They do not change the underlying terrain type, but units on the road/railroad ignore all movement penalties for terrain."


"2.03.1 Roads. Hexes containing a gray line with a dashed yellow center are road hexes. Units which enter a hex on the road may ignore any movement penalties for the underlying terrain. A unit which stays on the road for its entire movement phase gets a “road bonus” to movement (see Section 5.07.1). Roads do not affect combat. If a road leads straight into a water hex, it is a GEV ramp, specifically made to allow GEVs to move between land and water without losing the road bonus."

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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
So the real question would be, are ramps sufficient to cover the need, or would it make sense to add a true hex-side type that can be used between any land/water transition?
It would make more sense to add true hexside overlays. The real question becomes is this worth investing in to make available? I think it is.

Here's a image I did up using terrain images from the rules to illustrate the suggestion:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/128248...7685954428302/

Note: I think "Marsh" and Beach hexside overlays the same size as Ridge overlays would work. That's what was being used in the PC game basically for Beaches, the overlay was on both sides of a hex line side like a Ridge.

As always, Thanks for commenting and feedback. :)
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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 01-12-2018 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:04 AM   #4
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

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Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
Using Ramps also become a problem because units on them ignore underlying terrain.
Using ramps actually doesn't have this issue because the beach is defined as "clear", which is effectively the same thing as using a ramp that ignores underlying terrain. What you've stumbled on, though, is part of the reason why beaches exist only on clear terrain: It's very fiddly when you combine the hex side with terrain other than clear in the current definition of a beach.

Don't forget, a beach is a full hex because there are other elements of what a beach can do that are broken if you try to redefine them (namely the GEV stuff for transitions between road and rail). The fact the rule is in 2.01 (terrain types) and not 2.02 (hexside terrain) is another indicator that this is a full hex terrain type. The hex-side portion of the description is just a part of explaining how to define the sloped edge.

That said, maybe it's possible to redefine beaches as a hex-side terrain type, or add a new hex-side terrain type that's beach-like, but not called a beach. I think changing it to a hex-side terrain type could actually work.
2.02.3 Beach. A beach is hard, flat, and gently sloped terrain from water to land. These “beach hexsides” are shown in tan. GEVs may move through a beach hexside from land to water, or vice versa, without ending the turn at the edge of the water. If a road or railroad passes through a clear hex with a beach, a GEV may move from road/RR to water or vice versa and get a road bonus for that phase, if and only if it passes through the beach hex side.

Beaches appear only on overlays, for use in scenarios.
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Old 01-11-2018, 11:38 AM   #5
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

Quote:
Disclaimer: I'm going to apologize now, in the proofreading stages, because this post ended up a little stream-of-conscious-y.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
2.02.3 Beach. A beach is hard, flat, and gently sloped terrain from water to land. These “beach hexsides” are shown in tan. GEVs may move through a beach hexside from land to water, or vice versa, without ending the turn at the edge of the water. If a road or railroad passes through a clear hex with a beach, a GEV may move from road/RR to water or vice versa and get a road bonus for that phase, if and only if it passes through the beach hex side.

Beaches appear only on overlays, for use in scenarios.
Is it a moot point due to a bug in the video game? Maybe I'm not looking in the right place, but the ODE PDF doesn't say anything about having to stop before entering a swamp...just that it costs double and comes with a disable/stuck risk. Unless...the only other thing I can think of [as I don't have the Quagmire map in front of me] is maybe we're looking at the edge case of a water hex bordering a swamp hex?

When it comes to water/swamp transitions and the delayed movement rule, I can see an argument for why it shouldn't apply [units are already in the water, no bank/shore to cross], an argument for why it should [the ground under the water isn't guaranteed to play nice, which is also good for gameplay consistency], along with an argument that hover vehicles only should be exempt from the delay rule because they're on top the water.

Granted, that is all based on my internal "if this were real" justification for why Streams and Water <-> Land transitions delay movement...if the thought process I'm working off of is wrong, it's all a moot point, but lemme throw it out there and see what you guys think.

Said understanding:
In real-world warfare, Banks and Shorelines rarely cooperate with vehicles trying to cross them...reflected in-game by Infantry not being affected, heavier units having an easier time than lighter units, etc. From a game design / map-making perspective we'd be looking at a logistical nightmare if "rugged shoreline" was explicit, rather than implicit, especially when it comes to overlays...so it makes sense for "This edge is suitable for a vehicle landing" to be an overlay, ala beaches (naturally suitable) and ramps (artificially suitable).

If my thought process is correct, and because 'it still affects armor units due to navigating the water bed' is the best ease-of-play / internal consistency decision, then...maybe a "Marsh" hex-side is a good idea, just to handle the swamp-related edge cases. A Beach can technically cover it, but would clog up the beach section with special case rules. Ramps technically do the job, but are specific in their wording: they're a feature of roads, and as such we probably shouldn't go down the rabbit hole of "A road can have a ramp, but a ramp doesn't need a road". That way lies fodder for semantic arguments.

Besides...we already have a precedent for "This overlay means use these rules instead", in the form of Streams. To over-simplify, a stream overlay at an abstract level is "Treat this edge as a water/land transition in addition to any other hex-entry effects". Putting it all together, "Marsh" hexsides could perform a similar function to beaches or ramps, but with rules tailored to interacting with swamps rather than interacting with Water and Roads. The Combat Engineers supplement [Section 14] gives us plenty of rules that could be easily adapted for such a thing. For the below, I'm shamelessly plagiarizing 14.04.1 and 14.04.2...

Proposed new rule:
Quote:
2.02.3 Marsh Hexsides: A mottled green/blue hexside represents a Marsh. Marshes are transition areas between Swamp and non-Swamp hexes with firmer ground, fewer obstacles, and shallower water. When entering a Swamp through a Marsh hexside, units susceptible to becoming Disabled or Stuck do so only on a roll of 1. Units disabled by failing that roll remain Disabled only on a roll of 1. In addition, GEVs may transition between Water and Swamp hexes through a Marsh without stopping, as per the rules for Beaches (2.01.9). Marshes appear only on Overlays, for use in Scenarios.
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Last edited by TheAmishStig; 01-11-2018 at 11:51 AM. Reason: Not all units are susceptible to getting stuck/disabled.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:11 PM   #6
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

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Is it a moot point due to a bug in the video game? Maybe I'm not looking in the right place, but the ODE PDF doesn't say anything about having to stop before entering a swamp...just that it costs double and comes with a disable/stuck risk. Unless...the only other thing I can think of [as I don't have the Quagmire map in front of me] is maybe we're looking at the edge case of a water hex bordering a swamp hex?
The issue is not the swamp, the issue is the water next to the swamp:
5.08.2 ...A GEV approaching the edge of a body of water must end its movement phase at the edge of the water, and may not move onto (or leave) the water until its next movement phase, as though it were crossing a stream.
A GEV has to stop, regardless of the terrain on the other side of the bank. What's trying to be "fixed" (assuming it needs to be) is that the only thing currently in the game that can negate that (in nature) is a beach; and beaches are currently only full-hex terrain types, so it can't be used for town/water, forest/water, swamp/water, etc.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:32 PM   #7
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

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The issue is not the swamp, the issue is the water next to the swamp:
5.08.2 ...A GEV approaching the edge of a body of water must end its movement phase at the edge of the water, and may not move onto (or leave) the water until its next movement phase, as though it were crossing a stream.
A GEV has to stop, regardless of the terrain on the other side of the bank. What's trying to be "fixed" (assuming it needs to be) is that the only thing currently in the game that can negate that (in nature) is a beach; and beaches are currently only full-hex terrain types, so it can't be used for town/water, forest/water, swamp/water, etc.
Ok, so my eventual realization of "wait, is this what's at play?" was right...once I looked up Swamps and sat there scratching my head for a while, then reread the thread, noticed that while Water was never specifically mentioned in the OP but that the context should have given it away. I'm ashamed it took me so long to suss out what the real question was, my brain must be down a few tread units or something.

And apologies for the possibly bad wording...I know that movement delay is a feature of water hexes, not swamps. As I'd put further down in the post, I see the arguments for and against there being a special case rule for water/swamp interactions specifically, so let my mind run wild on what to do about it if something should be done.

Thoughts on any of the rest?
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Old 01-11-2018, 03:12 PM   #8
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Thoughts on any of the rest?
The marsh hexside is an interesting idea and would certainly fix the "problem". The only general issue I have with introducing another hexside terrain type is they are inherently fiddly and unused. In real life, the counters are annoying and get lost/move/whatever easily, and are a bear to work with or dig out of the box. They are so unpopular, SJG couldn't even give them away as a PDF (the streams PDF was reported to have very low download numbers).

The other problem I have with making a new type, is the question: how many hexside types do we actually need? I'd rather see a more general-purpose type that can be used in multiple places than one that can be used only in a specific case. That's how we got to where we are in the first place with beaches.
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Old 01-11-2018, 04:40 PM   #9
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

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The marsh hexside is an interesting idea and would certainly fix the "problem". The only general issue I have with introducing another hexside terrain type is they are inherently fiddly and unused. In real life, the counters are annoying and get lost/move/whatever easily, and are a bear to work with or dig out of the box. They are so unpopular, SJG couldn't even give them away as a PDF (the streams PDF was reported to have very low download numbers).

The other problem I have with making a new type, is the question: how many hexside types do we actually need? I'd rather see a more general-purpose type that can be used in multiple places than one that can be used only in a specific case. That's how we got to where we are in the first place with beaches.
Fair enough! I wasn't sure if I'd overreached / made them too powerful by using the 'escort' effects from 14.04.1 and 14.04.2 and the GEV Beach effect all in the same overlay.

I can see that, on both points...admittedly I was thinking 100% game effects and 0% on-table consequences. Thinking about it, unless I'm missing something there's really only three conditions a hex side (whether standalone or built into hexes) can affect: delay effects (streams, beaches), stuck/disabled effects (none currently, proposed as part of Marsh), and impasse effects (ridges).

As to whether we should...the best argument I have 'for' is "It doesn't necessarily hurt scenario designers", and you've already made the best argument against: "Fiddly bits can be a nightmare for scenario players"

Still, I'm already toying with a Normandy-style beachhead idea that uses beaches and ridges and 'difficult' terrain (terrain with a stuck/disable chance) to define some pristine landing spots...but if you land there, the defender is going to expect it, so it might be worth sending contingents to less-ideal spots too.

The whole discussion does also have me thinking about how to handle these same problems when I make a massive wooden monstrosity for convention spectacle purposes, too...
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Old 01-12-2018, 06:31 PM   #10
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Default Re: BEACH Overlays/Hexes/Tiles

I'm doing this off the cuff in real time and it's a WIP idea, so my apologies if I am not clearly and concisely articulating the concept. Trust me, you're doing great with kicking this around and it's appreciated. :)

I know what the rules state, however, I think Beaches are really just a Clear hex with up to six Beach hexsides. Which are really just Beach hexside overlays on Clear Terrain. Atm, we officially only have Clear Terrain with up to three Beach hexsides available as Tokens. These are called BEACH Terrain in the rules. What is proposed is to have Beach hexside overlays so players can make up to six hexsided Beach Terrain hexes...and also, if proven viable and complimentary to the game allow them to be used on Forest, Town and Rubble hexes. These would be hexside Beach overlays and full-size hex Beach terrain duplicating those so you wouldn't have to only use the hexside overlays. The hexside overlays would be easier to make and have a much smaller footprint than the full-hex Beach Terrain featuring up to six hexsides of Beach. Thus, you would want to make available more of those than the full-size Beach hexes featuring up to six hexsides of Beach.

The main suggestion is "Marsh". This is the same as Beach, but is only used with Swamp. However, this raises a question: Could Marsh hexsides be used in place of Beach hexsides "for looks", for example with a Forest or Town hex??? I'm thinking since Beach and Marsh are identical as far as the rules, only visually different, then yes. In this case, Marsh and the Terrain it is adjacent to would be mutually morphed into being the same levels as if the land level were equal to the Marsh water level. Where a Beach actually rises up slightly to meet the land Terrain. That would be the extreme edge case for Marsh though and explanation enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
The marsh hexside is an interesting idea and would certainly fix the "problem". The only general issue I have with introducing another hexside terrain type is they are inherently fiddly and unused. In real life, the counters are annoying and get lost/move/whatever easily, and are a bear to work with or dig out of the box. They are so unpopular, SJG couldn't even give them away as a PDF (the streams PDF was reported to have very low download numbers).
There is no other way of these being what they are in Chipboard, fiddly or not, that is what they are and they are used. Ideally, we would have a full hex Token for all the variations of these, but that would probably be beyond the scope of producing profitably.
Adding another or more does not change anything other than there would be more to fiddle or not with. I don't see any of these as being issues at all.

In the PC OGRE version, most of those fiddly or not pieces are also available and I am very glad to have them to use. They are what they have to be.

They could not give those Stream overlays away because they were not chipboard quality overlays, and you had to download and cut and paste and DIY. Most players would want a actual Chipboard sheet of those. Even as craft inclined as I am, I just didn't want to spend the time on the paper downloads...unless SJGs would actually sell the same chipboard board sheets they use for their token sheets as blanks, so we have the same quality chipboard (same thickness, ect), would I consider using those paper ones. But why not just make them available officially as chipboard tokens?

Related Suggestion: We need more Terrain overlays! Do up a bunch of Terrain specific sheets and include Stream and Marsh hexside overlays, and Forest/Beach, Town/Beach, Rubble/Beach fullhex tokens. ;)

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The other problem I have with making a new type, is the question: how many hexside types do we actually need? I'd rather see a more general-purpose type that can be used in multiple places than one that can be used only in a specific case. That's how we got to where we are in the first place with beaches.
All this is, is:

Beach hexside overlays usable with Forest, Town and Rubble Terrain.

Marsh, which acts the same as Beach hexside overlays.

I agree the Beach we have now keeps it basic, which is a good thing.

However, I am arguing for this because while it may seem trivial and do nothing but complicate the game uselessly and add more fiddly bits (I like fiddly bits!), to allow GEVs to have Terrain that causes them to stop before entering terrain AND also having Terrain that does not cause them to have to stop for the same turn before entering that Terrain is one of those rules that makes the game larger than the sum of it's parts.

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Originally Posted by TheAmishStig View Post
As to whether we should...the best argument I have 'for' is "It doesn't necessarily hurt scenario designers", and you've already made the best argument against: "Fiddly bits can be a nightmare for scenario players"
It actually helps scenario designers create more diverse and dynamic and fun games without adding useless complexity. The QUAGMIRE Scenario is my example. I have no doubt there are many other examples that can be found of how using these would be instrumental in a new scenario designs we have yet to see, otherwise not possible without using them.

The only thing I'm concerned about it may not be a good idea is that it only affects GEVs other than Marsh, which would act as Swamp except GEVs don't have to stop before entering. Is it worth making these only for those units?

If a scenario has no GEVs, then these are useless in those cases...yet that can be said of the Beach Terrain. Although aesthetically, even if no unit benefits from them, they would add a more visually appealing look to a map just like the new color variations we have of Terrain in the PC Game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAmishStig View Post
2.02.3 Marsh Hexsides: A mottled green/blue hexside represents a Marsh. Marshes are transition areas between Swamp and non-Swamp hexes with firmer ground, fewer obstacles, and shallower water. When entering a Swamp through a Marsh hexside, units susceptible to becoming Disabled or Stuck do so only on a roll of 1. Units disabled by failing that roll remain Disabled only on a roll of 1. In addition, GEVs may transition between Water and Swamp hexes through a Marsh without stopping, as per the rules for Beaches (2.01.9). Marshes appear only on Overlays, for use in Scenarios.
I like the description here. To be clear is the transition between Water and Swamp hexes through Marsh hexsides? This sounds very good as only one Marsh hexside on a Swamp hex means the GEV could enter without stopping before entering, but could move no further that turn, where if there were additional Marsh sidehexes, those could be used to transition without stopping. I assume they would still have to roll for a Disable when transitioning?

Even if a Swamp hex had all of it's hexsides Marsh hexsides, it would still use the same transitioning rules outlined above.

Thanks for the continuing discussion. :)
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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 01-15-2018 at 12:58 PM.
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