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Old 01-21-2016, 04:17 AM   #1
callen
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Default SM-2 Reversed-Grip Situation

We have an odd situation bringing up lots of questions, all based around Reversed Grip. We're having a lot of trouble coming up with agreement and can't find much here to help. I'd love to hear if there is any consensus on any of these.

The situation is that player 1 and player 2 are in a cage that can sway. The cage is 1 yard across, so basically 1 hex. It is 3 yards tall, though. Player 1 has SM-2 and has a SM-2 halberd (using Low Tech Companion 2). Player 2 has SM0.

Non-issues
  • Bad Footing - We are fine here, both players accepting it.
  • Relative SM - We're using relative SM and are fine here.
Issues
  • Can Reversed Grip (MA p.111-112) be used with the Close Combat Technique's (MA p.69) listed penalties? Player 1 argues that the listed penalties apply. Since the weapon has reach 2, it becomes reach 1 for all purposes, and all purposes include this. So there is a -4 penalty. Player 2 notes that the technique says "All of this assumes a normal grip" and "See Reversed Grip (pp. 111-112) for an alternative." It is not a normal grip, so these rules (for which "all" has been used) don't apply. Also, combining them is not what "alternative" means. Meanwhile, Kromm used the same "alternative" here http://forums.sjgames.com/show...+combat+technique%22 to explain that Armed Grapple does not use these penalties, and Kromm also comments on not wasting space which would seem to be the case if those comments within the Technique are not valid. However, both players agree that shortening the reach should not make it harder to hit a nearer target, so we can get past the rules disagreement and accept a -4 penalty, but the question about whether there is consensus on this is still there.
  • The cage is much smaller than the weapon (except perhaps if player 1 is trying to stab player 2's feet). As it is a cage, there is some space between bars. That changes it from nearly impossible to even hold the halberd to possible, with the back half (the weapon itself is measured as 2 hexes since it's reach 2) of the haft extending outside the cage. That means the bars will interfere considerably with the halberd's use. Player 2 cites Underground Adventures combined with the reach 1 for all purposes to suggest -4 is the appropriate penalty for a thrust. Player 1 says the SM-2 character is very small and so has lots of room to maneuver so there should be no penalty. Player 2 replies that that is why the penalty is much smaller than it would be for a SM0 halberd but that the SM-2 halberd is still long enough that half of it will be outside the cage no matter how little the SM-2 character is; it's like a SM0 character in a 2-hex by 2-hex space with a halberd.
  • Can the SM-2 character even wield the SM-2 halberd in Reversed Grip? Player 1 cites Reversed Grip and notes the reach is 2. Player 2 points out that relative to the SM-2 character the halberd is just as long as a reach 3 halberd for a SM0 person and that none of its unbalanced notes change, saying this seems to be using a loophole because LTC2 did not specifically comment on Reversed Grip. Player 2 also points out that this means it is impossible for SM+7 and bigger creatures to use Reversed Grip at all because even their C weapons become reach 3, and small SM creatures can use absurdly long weapons relative to their own size with Reversed Grip. Player 2 suggests the LTC2 rule should also apply to Reversed Grip, so the character should be able to reverse the grip on a weapon of reach 2x0.6=1.2 or smaller.
  • Completely related to the above point, player 1 points out that the SM-2 character should be able to use Reversed Grip with a SM0 dueling balberd since it has reach 2, and since that dueling halberd is bigger than the SM-2 halberd the SM-2 halberd should be useable with Reversed Grip. Player 2 cites "its length will be awkward" from LTC2 along with Reversed Grip's "Longer weapons are too awkward to reverse" to point out that the intent is that it is not possible for the SM-2 character to use Reversed Grip with a SM0 dueling halberd.

I think everyone is doing a good job referencing things and making points, but it's not very clear in the rules. As this is between two players, it's that much more contentious. The GM is listening to the debate openly. But it would be helpful if there is any accepted consensus on any of this. Or maybe even just more opinions from others who know their GURPS rules well. Thanks for any help!!!
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Old 01-21-2016, 04:55 AM   #2
GodBeastX
 
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Default Re: SM-2 Reversed-Grip Situation

A blurb from Reverse Grip says "A reach 2 weapon functions as reach
1 for all purposes half its length is in front of the wielder,
the other half is behind him. Longer weapons are too awkward
to reverse."

This means it's a Reach 1 weapon for the purposes of negatives to close combat. All is italics, meaning there's no exception.

It says that it uses an ice pick style attack. If I had to describe this with a reach two weapon I would say it's somewhat of a downward thrust.

A SM2 character shouldn't fit in that cage at all. This means their largest dimension is > 3 yards. Not >= 3 yards. This would means they would probably have to be crouching or similar. The weapon itself would probably not be able to fit well either.

In other words the SM2 person should be horribly penalized. I would take striking into close combat along with some sort of kneeling position at minimum for negatives. Swing attacks are probably not possible if I'd even allow the weapon to fight at all.
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Old 01-21-2016, 05:06 AM   #3
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Default Re: SM-2 Reversed-Grip Situation

GodBeastX, you should probably re-read the OP. This is a negative SM here, and a weapon scaled down that much may just be effective in a cage. The real question is what kind of idiot doesn't take weapons away when they put people in cages?
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Old 01-21-2016, 05:14 AM   #4
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Default Re: SM-2 Reversed-Grip Situation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nereidalbel View Post
GodBeastX, you should probably re-read the OP. This is a negative SM here, and a weapon scaled down that much may just be effective in a cage. The real question is what kind of idiot doesn't take weapons away when they put people in cages?
Oh derp, I read it all wrong. Yeah, -2. Then this weapon can't be reverse gripped. It becomes 1-2 reach (For normal halberd). And it might still be awkward to fight with in the cage. A dueling halberd is smaller though and looks reversible by RAW (reach 1,2). It'd becomes reach 1 period. So either way it's only -4 to hit with the little thing's reach.

So yeah, other than realizing I should be sleeping instead of reading the forums right now, I think the situation is grip for the small thing.
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Last edited by GodBeastX; 01-21-2016 at 05:18 AM.
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Old 01-21-2016, 06:37 AM   #5
callen
 
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Default Re: SM-2 Reversed-Grip Situation

Quote:
Originally Posted by GodBeastX View Post
All is italics, meaning there's no exception.
Since, as I'd mentioned, player 1 and player 2 agreed on the realistic use so we're OK on this one and we're using the same interpretation as you.

This question was just looking at the RAW. We know there is an exception. If you hold a reach 2 weapon in Reversed Grip it is reach 1. If you then change the grip to a normal grip, does it remain reach 1? This is, after all, one of the purposes: grip changes. I think we can all agree that it returns to reach 2. Similarly, I don't think anyone thinks you can fit it in a smaller sheath if you use Reversed Grip prior to sheathing it. So it is reach 1 for all purposes while continuing to use it in Reversed Grip. It seems like nitpicking, but that is because player 2's question is not about the reach 1 in RAW but about using Reversed Grip with CC technique at all.

Back to player 2's point with RAW on this one. Player 2 wasn't debating -4 vs -8 (dealing with the reach) but the applicability at all. The CC technique says all of the rules above apply only for normal grip. It also says Reversed Grip is an alternative, meaning replacement for not potentially supplemental (and Kromm used this same terminology to specifically make that other case). So, sure, it's reach 1 for all purposes while in Reversed Grip, but RAW also states you can't use the CC technique rules with Reversed Grip twice, regardless of what its reach is. Player 2's question is what in RAW even allows you to use CC technique with Reversed Grip at all, not how much penalty would be assessed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GodBeastX View Post
Oh derp, I read it all wrong. Yeah, -2. Then this weapon can't be reverse gripped. It becomes 1-2 reach (For normal halberd). And it might still be awkward to fight with in the cage. A dueling halberd is smaller though and looks reversible by RAW (reach 1,2).
Looks like you're defining reversible based on the SM0 stats, prior to adjusting for SM, right? That would be player 2's interpretation for the third point (but not necessarily the fourth point) stated differently, right?

Thanks!!!
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Old 01-21-2016, 08:13 AM   #6
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Default Re: SM-2 Reversed-Grip Situation

Quote:
Originally Posted by callen View Post
Since, as I'd mentioned, player 1 and player 2 agreed on the realistic use so we're OK on this one and we're using the same interpretation as you.

This question was just looking at the RAW. We know there is an exception. If you hold a reach 2 weapon in Reversed Grip it is reach 1. If you then change the grip to a normal grip, does it remain reach 1? This is, after all, one of the purposes: grip changes. I think we can all agree that it returns to reach 2. Similarly, I don't think anyone thinks you can fit it in a smaller sheath if you use Reversed Grip prior to sheathing it. So it is reach 1 for all purposes while continuing to use it in Reversed Grip. It seems like nitpicking, but that is because player 2's question is not about the reach 1 in RAW but about using Reversed Grip with CC technique at all.

Back to player 2's point with RAW on this one. Player 2 wasn't debating -4 vs -8 (dealing with the reach) but the applicability at all. The CC technique says all of the rules above apply only for normal grip. It also says Reversed Grip is an alternative, meaning replacement for not potentially supplemental (and Kromm used this same terminology to specifically make that other case). So, sure, it's reach 1 for all purposes while in Reversed Grip, but RAW also states you can't use the CC technique rules with Reversed Grip twice, regardless of what its reach is. Player 2's question is what in RAW even allows you to use CC technique with Reversed Grip at all, not how much penalty would be assessed.


Looks like you're defining reversible based on the SM0 stats, prior to adjusting for SM, right? That would be player 2's interpretation for the third point (but not necessarily the fourth point) stated differently, right?

Thanks!!!
Essentially when dealing with Size Modifier scaling, it seems to treat it generally as just scaling for effects of grip in places. The only time it isn't simply treated as scaling is when mass is involved.

So for the intent of my explanation, look at the smaller creature as SM0 and the normal size as being SM2.
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Old 01-21-2016, 09:24 AM   #7
callen
 
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Default Re: SM-2 Reversed-Grip Situation

Quote:
Originally Posted by GodBeastX View Post
So for the intent of my explanation, look at the smaller creature as SM0 and the normal size as being SM2.
Oh. I get your way. That's a nice way to consider it. Generally it's much easier then because you can just look up what's in the book without scaling anything, assuming you're holding something sized for you. Then the SM-2 halberd would be looked at as a halberd, which with reach 3 cannot be held in Reversed Grip. Meanwhile, if we consider the SM-2 person trying to hold the SM0 dueling halberd in Reversed Grip, that would become a SM0 person trying to hold a SM+2 dueling halberd in Reversed Grip, and since a SM+2 dueling halberd has a reach of 3, this doesn't work, either. And, happily, the two are consistent.
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Old 01-21-2016, 09:33 AM   #8
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Default Re: SM-2 Reversed-Grip Situation

You got it.
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