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View Poll Results: DFRPG Future, as whished for by Forumites
1) Just make more. 37 22.56%
2) .pdf with POD support 43 26.22%
2a) Seperate line. 10 6.10%
2b) Integrate into the DF line 67 40.85%
2c) Finish whats available, and end further production of new material. 1 0.61%
3) Simply end all further production, and place resources in other projects. 6 3.66%
Voters: 164. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-18-2018, 03:07 AM   #71
DocRailgun
 
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Default Re: The Future of the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game?

You have hit the problem on the head. 99% of all the 3rd party product is garbage and it makes the game system tied to the garbage product a joke. Do you remember the Book of Erotic Fantasy?

So, SJG would have to assign someone to read over everything before it's published - at that point that product should be brought in house... which defeats the purpose of it being a third-party product.


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Originally Posted by robertsconley View Post

But despite all the garbage found their respective 3PP releases there is a vibrancy not found among other games. While 3PP that appeal generally are rare many developed small fan bases and when added up makes for a large number.

I think by having some 3pp program in addition to why are already doing will be trick to build a slightly bigger audience for GURPS with a lot more variety than we have now.
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:45 AM   #72
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Default Re: The Future of the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game?

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Originally Posted by DocRailgun View Post
You have hit the problem on the head. 99% of all the 3rd party product is garbage and it makes the game system tied to the garbage product a joke. Do you remember the Book of Erotic Fantasy?

So, SJG would have to assign someone to read over everything before it's published - at that point that product should be brought in house... which defeats the purpose of it being a third-party product.
If SJ Games has to assign a reader there will be no 3PP program. They have too many other things that pay off more for them.

As for the garbage issue keep in mind that it is not 99% garbage but rather most are garbage to a single individual hobbyist. That it is different than what the next hobbyist thinks is garbage. And there will be those who think anything done outside of SJ Games production process is garbage and not worth their time.

The closest situation to what SJ Games will face are the Mongoose Traveller 2nd edition hobbyists deal with. Mongoose screwed up their 3PP program and it resulted in Traveller 20 and Mongoose 1st edition being adapted as the OGL Cepheus RPG.

The disconnect comes from the fact that Traveller as a RPG as been historically biased towards the Third Imperium setting. All Cepheus releases are for original settings or generic sci-if. Many Traveller hobbyists have the same attitude towards 3PP Cepheus as folks here do

The result was that the Cepheus learned to grow their own audience. And did well enough that after a,year Marc Miller acknowledged them and allowed a Cepheus sub forum to be opened on the Traveller RPG forum.

The moral of the story is that any GURPS will be forced in part to grow their own audience. There going to be nothing magical about the GURPS that will generate sales. What a 3PP license does is allow somebody with passion and a vision of what can be done with GURPS that is at odds with SJ Games. By at odds I don't mean GURPS Erotic Fantasy but mundane issues like book layout, emphasizing adventures, monster manuals, etc.

This will create variety and it is variety that over the long run that keep GURPS alive and thriving.
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Old 02-18-2018, 07:36 AM   #73
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Default Re: The Future of the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game?

Thinking about it more, I'm still somewhat suspecting that the game, overall:

1) Did help bring new folks to GURPS, witnessed by the sudden appearance of the Basic Set characters book on the Top 40 list
2) Is awesome
3) Is only fully dead if we let it go

https://gamingballistic.com/2018/02/...cost-overruns/
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Old 02-18-2018, 09:05 AM   #74
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Default Re: The Future of the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game?

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Thinking about it more, I'm still somewhat suspecting that the game, overall:

1) Did help bring new folks to GURPS, witnessed by the sudden appearance of the Basic Set characters book on the Top 40 list
2) Is awesome
3) Is only fully dead if we let it go

https://gamingballistic.com/2018/02/...cost-overruns/
Your comparison to Firefly is apt. Firefly (and Serenity after it) were not well marketed. They could have included QR codes to the front row of the return of Jesus and the former would still have been canceled and the latter accounted a flop. They were sent out into the world either under-marketed or poorly marketed.

DFRPG was never going to get the caffeine injection that 5E did. Hasbro is a marketing elephant. SJG is a mouse. We talk a lot in these forums about what "we" can do to expand the reach of GURPS, but it's no less true now than it has been for hundreds of years that professional marketing raises awareness and interest far more significantly than word of mouth in the majority of situations. Yes, there are exceptions. DFRPG was never going to be one of them. Yes, "the Internet." 5E is still using a bullhorn there, too, and we get relegated to loud whispers in inappropriately close ears. This isn't to fault SJG's marketing efforts. It's to suggest that the comparison to 5E and its success requires that one wear a blindfold against the reason 5E succeeded the way it did.
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Old 02-18-2018, 09:20 AM   #75
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Default Re: The Future of the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game?

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Originally Posted by kmunoz View Post
Your comparison to Firefly is apt. Firefly (and Serenity after it) were not well marketed. They could have included QR codes to the front row of the return of Jesus and the former would still have been canceled and the latter accounted a flop. They were sent out into the world either under-marketed or poorly marketed.

DFRPG was never going to get the caffeine injection that 5E did. Hasbro is a marketing elephant. SJG is a mouse. We talk a lot in these forums about what "we" can do to expand the reach of GURPS, but it's no less true now than it has been for hundreds of years that professional marketing raises awareness and interest far more significantly than word of mouth in the majority of situations. Yes, there are exceptions. DFRPG was never going to be one of them. Yes, "the Internet." 5E is still using a bullhorn there, too, and we get relegated to loud whispers in inappropriately close ears. This isn't to fault SJG's marketing efforts. It's to suggest that the comparison to 5E and its success requires that one wear a blindfold against the reason 5E succeeded the way it did.
The only real reason I compared it to 5e was to set the upper bound on what a breakaway hit could potentially achieve. That’s all.
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Old 02-18-2018, 09:58 AM   #76
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Default Re: The Future of the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game?

I guess my frustration is with the stakeholder report calling DFRPG a "failure" when the desired level of success had a minimal probability of occurring in the first place. That's like getting upset at a pitcher hitting a single instead of a home run.
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Old 02-18-2018, 10:24 AM   #77
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Default Re: The Future of the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game?

I'd love to know what exactly SJG's marketing plan was for the DFRPG, beyond have a kickstarter and a GenCon presence. Did copies get sent to potential reviewers with some internet presence (e.g. at Geekdad, Geek and Sundry, or some of the youtube folks)? If not, why not? Seems like that'd have been a relatively inexpensive form of outreach. Were "Men in Black" asked to provide demos of the game at gaming stores, even if only in large markets? Why not a short series of youtube videos with some of the SJG key players (RPK, Kromm, and/or even Steve-o himself) describing the game, what sets it apart from the flood of d20 clones, and then demonstrating the game in action? What about printing a short solo adventure (such as in Pyramid #104), sold for super cheap or given for free at stores or conventions, that would demonstrate the game in action and potentially hook new customers?

Doug has some really good points, in my opinion. Matt Colville can raise over a million dollars in a kickstarter, because he's got an audience. The DFRPG went with the kickstarter first strategy (if we ignore those of us who were already GURPS players) and so needed to build an audience/customer base beyond the existing GURPS crowd. Again, what was the plan to accomplish this (beyond passing marketing responsibilities to existing customers)?

I'm pretty upset about this. I was really hoping that the DFRPG would expand GURPS presence again. It makes sense in a lot of ways - introduce people to a worked example of the tool box system and then get them interested in the tool box itself.

Finally: what about selling the books without the box and ancillaries? A player's bundle (w/ Adventurers, Exploits, and Spells), a GM's bundle (w/ all aforementioned books, plus Monsters), and the intro adventure bundle (w/ maps at least).
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Old 02-18-2018, 10:42 AM   #78
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Default Re: The Future of the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game?

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Again, what was the plan to accomplish this (beyond passing marketing responsibilities to existing customers)?
I don't know everything they did, but there was certainly advertising on and outreach to a lot of relevant places. I recall seeing ads on some major gaming web sites like rpg.net, and I was involved in an effort to place articles on popular gaming blogs like Tenkar's Tavern. I saw more advertising for the DFRPG than I have for any other SJ Games product which wasn't a major Munchkin release. If the marketing didn't work, it wasn't for lack of trying.
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Old 02-18-2018, 10:59 AM   #79
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Default Re: The Future of the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game?

I wonder if there was a problem with the timing of post release marketing as a result of the game coming out late.

It's easier to promote the kickstarter because you know when it's happening. Kickstarter strikes me as a poor marketing tool as any hype it built up dies out by the time the product hits stores.
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Old 02-18-2018, 11:19 AM   #80
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Default Re: The Future of the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game?

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Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company View Post
I don't know everything they did, but there was certainly advertising on and outreach to a lot of relevant places. I recall seeing ads on some major gaming web sites like rpg.net, and I was involved in an effort to place articles on popular gaming blogs like Tenkar's Tavern. I saw more advertising for the DFRPG than I have for any other SJ Games product which wasn't a major Munchkin release. If the marketing didn't work, it wasn't for lack of trying.
That's good to know. I certainly wasn't trying to come across as an entitled jerk with my questions.
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