Terminology - adjDX

[tbeard1999]

The TFT rules were written in an informal, almost conversational style. This compared quite favorably with the ponderous, pseudo-scholarly style that Gygax favored in the DMG and PH.

However, I wonder if the adjDX language needs to be revisited.

In general, adjDX is the figure's DX, adjusted by external factors - armor, damage taken, bad footing, etc. In combat, adjDX determines strike order, which is VERY important. It might also determine other, non-combat sequencing (i.e., who gets to lunge for the rope first).

My problem is that it isn't always clear whether a particular DX modifier actually affects adjDX (i.e., strike order). Examples below all assume Al has adjDX 12 and Bob has adjDX 11:

So normally, Al hits first. But if Al makes an aimed shot to the weapon arm (-4 DX) does he still attack before Bob?

What if Bob has Missile Weapons talent (+3 DX) - does he fire before Al?

If Al fires at Bob and Bob is in concealment (-2 DX), does he fire before or after Al?

In other words, which DX modifiers affect strike order - what I'll call adjDX - and which ones don't?

Note - AM does state that range modifiers for missile weapons don't affect DX order.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

The TFT rules were written in an informal, almost conversational style. This compared quite favorably with the ponderous, pseudo-scholarly style that Gygax favored in the DMG and PH.

However, I wonder if the adjDX language needs to be revisited.

My problem is that it isn't always clear whether a particular DX modifier actually affects adjDX (i.e., strike order)... In other words, which DX modifiers affect strike order - what I'll call adjDX - and which ones don't?

Note - AM does state that range modifiers for missile weapons don't affect DX order.

Right or Wrong - I never played it that way. The adjDX for the order-of-attacks was factored one way, and the adjDX to-hit was factored another way; HOWEVER, the rules don't actually inform you to play it that way.

Now that you point it out, it is ambiguous on this point. The rules state that the only exceptions to order-of-attack are Pole Weapon Charges/Charging, and 2nd Arrow fired in one turn.

Also consider this, in some cases a figure may have an adjDX of 12 when attacking one figure, and an adjDX of 10 when attacking another due to circumstances like elevation or something. So does your figure attack later because his opponent happens to be standing on a chest???, but attacks sooner against the opponent standing in a 3' hole???

That's why I factor the order-of-attack, and, the to-hit separately -- BUT THAT IS JUST ME.

So, yes, a bit of finer talk would be most welcome I think.

JK

[tbeard1999]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Right or Wrong - I never played it that way. The adjDX for the order-of-attacks was factored one way, and the adjDX to-hit was factored another way; HOWEVER, the rules don't actually inform you to play it that way.

Now that you point it out, it is ambiguous on this point. The rules state that the only exceptions to order-of-attack are Pole Weapon Charges/Charging, and 2nd Arrow fired in one turn.

Also consider this, in some cases a figure may have an adjDX of 12 when attacking one figure, and an adjDX of 10 when attacking another due to circumstances like elevation or something. So does your figure attack later because his opponent happens to be standing on a chest???, but attacks sooner against the opponent standing in a 3' hole???

That's why I factor the order-of-attack, and, the to-hit separately -- BUT THAT IS JUST ME.

So, yes, a bit of finer talk would be most welcome I think.

JK

I think that it could be as simple as:

"Adjusted DX (adjDX) is a figure's DX, adjusted by armor, shields, terrain/footing, injury or anything else that reduces a figure's agility or slows him or her down. AdjDX primarily determines the order in which figures attack in combat.

"Things that are simply harder (long range missile attacks, aimed shots, etc.) or easier (bonuses for Missile Weapons or Guns talents; striking at side/rear hexes [maybe]) do not factor into adjDX. They are simply subtracted from adjDX when a DX roll is made.

"Unless otherwise stated, all DX adjustments other than those mentioned above will not affect adjDX."

Something like that.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

"Unless otherwise stated, all DX adjustments other than those mentioned above will not affect adjDX."

Something like that.

Yes TY something along those lines should get it. Glad you brought this one out TY for what may seem obvious to one person, may create great questions for another; and there is no way to tell how someone is going to interpret a thing. More clarity and explanation where potential ambiguity is present is always a good thing by my way of thinking.

JK

[Terquem]

Terminology - *sigh*

I find that it might be better to separate out different mechanical definitions right from the start

So there is this thing called "AdjDex" which is a factored value

and then there is this other thing called (well not yet anyway) a "DexRoll"

A DexRoll may be modified by situational modifiers, while an AdjDex Score is modified by conditional modifiers. You would normally make a DexRoll to succeed at some "task" and the target would be an AdjDex value.

see how I did that.

[Skarg]

Yes, it needs to be clearer which modifiers affect action sequence, and which don't... unless they ALL do.

Some experienced TFT players do have all DX modifiers affect action sequence.

However we did not do that, because it didn't make intuitive sense to us, and it also seems like a bit of a mess, since each figure may have several things they could do each of which might have a different DX adjustment, and if that affects action sequence, then it multiplies the potential action sequence into what seems to me an unmanageable thing. Especially for the positive modifiers: everyone with a rear or side target could go at +4 or +2 before they usually do, and then if you're using Aimed Shots, people need to decide if they want to go for the torso, or wait and go for the arm, or wait longer and go for the head... I haven't tried to play that way, but is seems hard to manage (and I'm usually the one who loves complexity... but only when I like what it adds).

[Rick_Smith]

We played it that ALL DX modifiers would change the order of attacks.

Nice and simple.

Rick

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Yes, it needs to be clearer which modifiers affect action sequence, and which don't... unless they ALL do.

Some experienced TFT players do have all DX modifiers affect action sequence.

Right, this was how we originally played the game when AM, AW, and ITL hit - add up ALL the modifiers, no excpetions, UNTIL, as you said...

Originally Posted by Skarg

...it didn't make intuitive sense to us, and it also seems like a bit of a mess, since each figure may have several things they could do each of which might have a different DX adjustment, and if that affects action sequence, then it multiplies the potential action sequence into what seems to me an unmanageable thing.

And then we agreed that the distinction of adjDX as it determines Order-of-Attack, and adjDX in determining To-Hit were two separate concepts, and thus, needed to be factored separately.

And that's what felt right for us; even though it is not what the rules specifically state.

JK

[tbeard1999]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Right, this was how we originally played the game when AM, AW, and ITL hit - add up ALL the modifiers, no excpetions, UNTIL, as you said...



And then we agreed that the distinction of adjDX as it determines Order-of-Attack, and adjDX in determining To-Hit were two separate concepts, and thus, needed to be factored separately.

And that's what felt right for us; even though it is not what the rules specifically state.

JK

Over time, I evolved a set of house rules as to which adjustments affected strike order and which didn’t. Somewhere, there’s probably a list but I have no idea where.

[Kirk]

A list of what does and doesn't affect *when* one acts vs. *how often* would be a rather simple thing to include in the new edition, or even perhaps a *concept* that could be applied uniformly without having to resort to a list.

Our group did the same as others here, winging it for a while until the house rules evolved, but playing elsewhere sometimes became problematic because the interpretation of what made someone faster vs. more accurate was different.

Does Gimli standing on Balin's tomb cause an orc to spend a bit more time judging his attack before striking, or is it just harder to get a more substantial hit? :)