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Old 10-21-2016, 09:33 AM   #51
AurochDigital
 
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Default Re: Playing the Ogre: Teaching the Computer

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Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
I think command structure plays a very important part in the OGREverse and is unique because you have OGREs as part of that structure. I think that it correlates to initiative in battle...it seems at the time I posted this and judging from the comments I was mistaken. I'm standing my ground and still contend initiative has a lot to do with command structure in the OGREverse. It's a shame the only relevance this has is as background text in the OGRE MINIATURES game. If this could somehow be manifest in the game it would really add a cool layer to the gameplay itself and open up new possibilities for scenarios and strategies.
Do you have any ideas of what you're thinking here? (Like the gist of it!) I'm assuming the grand strategy layer in say Total War games?
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Old 10-21-2016, 09:35 AM   #52
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Earlier this year I was messing about computerising Ogre for my own phone. Written very crudely in visual basic.

It was very fast to create a set of heat maps based on:
- Distance to target
- Hexes with a lot of possible attack options
- Hexes with strong defender attacks
- Terrain modifiers

Certainly less than 1 second for a move - either for Ogre or all the defenders units.

I had a variable multiplier based on:
- How strong a defender unit was - I decided on different levels to see how strategy changed
- How valueable a terrain effect was - ditto
- How Offensive the Ogre was - in particular were units killed more or less valueable related to the CP.
- How scared of Howitzers the Ogre was.

Speed on a fairly average PC was more than acceptable.


It all sort of ground to halt, I got distracted by other things.

However, some things were plain:
1) The tuning of parameters for the Ogre especially was interesting in it's own right.
2) The tuning of parameters for the defenders was less interesting.
3) The heuristics meant the Ogre rarely did anything unexpected - though that was a long way from saying it was beatable.
That's been on my mind too. Would like it to feel, well as we've discussed - inhuman. Not sure how easy that would be without it being annoying to play (in a bad way) so lots of testing is in order!

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Finally, it was also plain that automating the process of playing both sides against each other and using some kind of evolutionary tuning would definetely be the way to go. But, from there you need to kind of break the tuning to make the game more interesting, rather than predictable.

I mention all this stuff because while I'm sure the programming team know all this stuff I thought it might be interesting to non-coders...
It is interesting and really helpful, thanks!
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Old 10-21-2016, 09:37 AM   #53
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Definitive kills: never.
I focus on not wasting attack strength at all cost. Never, NEVER allow unbalanced attacks to take place (eg, 3-2, 5-3, etc). Every point beyond what is absolutely necessary is a point that could have been used against something else. Either get a 1-1, or a 2-1 with _exactly_ enough to get it. This mantra has a huge impact on hex placement during movement, BTW. "Where can I go to give me the maximum number of potential attacks?" Somewhat related... the 1-2 attacks can be very effective. A lot of people shy away from them, but a 33% chance to at least disable is not insignificant. I have hosed many opponents using it.
That is a solid strategy and a bit....inhuman?! (in a good way!)
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Old 10-21-2016, 10:14 AM   #54
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Default Re: Playing the Ogre: Teaching the Computer

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Over time also keen to do the sharing of the 'guts' of the system. So it's on our radar!
Seeing how it works would be good. Being able to edit it and save it and share it around would be great.

Just clarifying.
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Old 10-21-2016, 02:39 PM   #55
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Seeing how it works would be good. Being able to edit it and save it and share it around would be great.
You could actually use such AI recipes to give Ogres unique personalities. Each AI strategy could be named after a specific Ogre that uses it in a scenario.
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Old 10-22-2016, 07:13 PM   #56
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You could actually use such AI recipes to give Ogres unique personalities. Each AI strategy could be named after a specific Ogre that uses it in a scenario.

OMG!!! this is SUCH a good idea! It would add variability to the game (always a plus in a limited-number-of-scenarios product) and it would be fun to try to guess the fighting style of the ogre after the game for extra points (there could be a screen) or it would be fun to pick your Ogre's style before the game if you wanted. It could also theoretically simplify the AI, if certain tactical situations caused the ogre to switch styles temporarily. For example, being close to the CP would probably trigger the Ogre into hyper aggressive mode, as would an enemy deployment which is too dispersed.
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Old 10-22-2016, 11:37 PM   #57
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Old 10-23-2016, 03:50 PM   #58
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Default Re: Playing the Ogre: Teaching the Computer

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Originally Posted by AurochDigital View Post
Do you have any ideas of what you're thinking here? (Like the gist of it!) I'm assuming the grand strategy layer in say Total War games?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
Just something like an assigned value to the Command Structure which would be the OGREs and Command Posts. As they are destroyed, so to is your Command Structure effectiveness which at the start of the game could be represented as a non-modified CRT. Losing a CP could drop your CRT effectiveness by -1 for example to represent that loss and it's effects on your forces. Simple.
As long as this is a bit that can be flipped [off], it could be interesting. In general, I am not a fan of anything that deviates from the current boardgame mechanics. The whole point of a computer version of Ogre is so I can play a game of Ogre on the computer. Things that are not in the boardgame, and can't be toggled, make it less Ogre and would make me very sad.
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Old 10-23-2016, 03:51 PM   #59
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Default Re: Playing the Ogre: Teaching the Computer

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That is a solid strategy and a bit....inhuman?! (in a good way!)
You noticed that, did you? Waste not, want not. :-)
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Old 10-23-2016, 04:37 PM   #60
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Default Re: Playing the Ogre: Teaching the Computer

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As long as this is a bit that can be flipped [off], it could be interesting. In general, I am not a fan of anything that deviates from the current boardgame mechanics. The whole point of a computer version of Ogre is so I can play a game of Ogre on the computer. Things that are not in the boardgame, and can't be toggled, make it less Ogre and would make me very sad.
Very much this. If it ain't in the board game rules, it should be at most optional content in the computer game.
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