Help me get familiar with Familiarity

[MakDemonik]

I have been talking with my player the other day about familiarity and turns out the more we read about it the less clear it becomes. Especially that it seems to me kind of an afterthought. The familiarity rules are presented in a side box in the basic set describing how it is a rule for technology operating skills but in most books mostly weapons are affected. Other than that, besides some perks i have found no traces of familiarity. Character templates or prewritten characters surely do not note them anywhere, while it is implied that the player should keep the models of technology he is familiar with written down.

Since Familiarity mostly comes up in talks about weapons I will use those as an example.

First - I am confused about what the familiarity actually covers. The Box on B169 makes it look like every single model of a gun should have its own familiarities except for extremely close guns.
Then The Guns skill descripes 3 distinct categories. Grip, Caliber and Action. And gives an example of 2 rifles being compared that are so different their stacked penalties total up to -6.

Now does this imply that it's the categories you gain familiarity with?
If that is the case. If I get familiar with 3 separate guns, 1 bolt action, 1 bipod (grip) and one that is 7.62 in caliber.

If I then pick up the AI IW I will have no familiarity penalty at all because I shot 3 different guns which in total cover all of the systems?
OR do I have to pick one closest familiarity and compare against those two specific models.

Second - One of the mentioned modifiers in the Guns skill was grip. A shoulder weapon was mentioned as was a bipod mounted weapon. Does this mean that If I am familiar with my Pistol and then 2 brace it with 2 hand that counts as changing grip and i am unfamiliar with it? It sounds ridiculous but since the bipod is specifically mentioned that would mean shooting my long arm which is usually shot from my shoulder is treated as unfamiliar if i lie down with it and shoot from a bipod.

Third - How do Different Skills and skill specialties work with Familiarity? A Glock 18 has the same Grip, Caliber and Action as the Steyr TMP. One uses the Guns (Pistol) skill the other the Guns (SMG) skill. Would I still be familiar with the TMP if I never fired it?

I hear you say "A glock 18 is basically a machine pistol I would have the player use the SMG skill anyhow". And Fine, it sounds reasonable. But lets see a less drastic example. TMP and Walther P99. Both are 9x19mm, with are single handed grip weapons, (or two handed if you want them to be) but the action is different (Full auto vs. Semi Auto). If i know the P99 does the familiarity count and I get only a -2 on my TMP? Or do i have effectively 0 familiarities with SMGs in that case? Which brings me to my last point...

And what if if im familiar with semi auto rifles, and pick up a rifle with semi, burst and full auto modes.
Do I have the penalty just because the full auto mode exists? Or can i shoot the second rifle without penalty as long as its semi auto adn get the penalty when i switch to full auto mode?

Fourth - Defaults. Do they stack? Do they not? To a point?
If I have the Rifle skill but NOT the SMG skill. If i pick up a very unfamiliar gun for my rifle skill the familiarities can stack up up to -6 even though i have hundreds or thousands of hours put into that skill... But if I use any SMG at default is the maximum suddenly -2?

Now if familiarities transfer between skill specialities that they could stack like this: Pick closest familiar gun, compare the 3 categories, then add the -2 for a total of -2 to -8. Or even -10 if the specialties default to each other at -4.
If Familiarities do not transfer would that mean that effectively you have no possible familiarity and any picked up new gun will have an automatic -8 to -10 because of familiarity penalty? At this point you might as well shoot blind into a random direction and it would not matter.

I could imagine a "take the worst" scenario where you use -2 if you are familiar with a close enough model from the other weapon specialty but if not you take the bigger penalty between -2/-4 (specialty) and -2 to -6 (familiarity). But this needs familiarities to transfer.

Which brings me to my last (bonus) peeve. The weird rule in B169. "If you have 6 familiarities with a skill you can roll to see with yo uare familiar with it"
For a rule as Familiarity, which in my opinion is on the higher end of the "Simulationist/pedantic" scale. Then giving an option like that is plain weird.
It implies that if im familiar with 6 revolvers i have a 50%+ chance of somehow knowing how to shoot a Glock 17 full auto.

If anything I would just use this rule as part of the non-cinematic version of Cross-Trained instead of it just happening after an arbitrary 6 familiarities with 6 random weapons.

Sorry for the long post. I just needed to get it out of my system.... help

[Donny Brook]

I think all your questions are good ones. They align with my opinion that familiarity 'rules' are impractical as they are written (to the extent they are). I never use the concept except when the plot/events specifically invoke an unusual example of a device. Like NATO troops encountering a North Korean field radio maybe. Otherwise, I assume that people skilled with equipment have been sufficiently exposed to the usual stuff that they are familiar enough.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by MakDemonik

First - I am confused about what the familiarity actually covers. The Box on B169 makes it look like every single model of a gun should have its own familiarities except for extremely close guns.
Then The Guns skill descripes 3 distinct categories. Grip, Caliber and Action. And gives an example of 2 rifles being compared that are so different their stacked penalties total up to -6.

Now does this imply that it's the categories you gain familiarity with?
If that is the case. If I get familiar with 3 separate guns, 1 bolt action, 1 bipod (grip) and one that is 7.62 in caliber.

If I then pick up the AI IW I will have no familiarity penalty at all because I shot 3 different guns which in total cover all of the systems?
OR do I have to pick one closest familiarity and compare against those two specific models.

Honestly I'm torn. On the one hand familiarity by synthesis seems valid. On the other hand having used a M2 HMG and a .22 LR pistol probably does not prepare you much for a .50 BMG pistol.

(Side note: Basic appears to talk about 'type' not 'caliber', though the examples of 'type' are in fact calibers. Outright using caliber makes no sense really, since you can have profoundly different rounds of the same caliber.)

Originally Posted by MakDemonik

Second - One of the mentioned modifiers in the Guns skill was grip. A shoulder weapon was mentioned as was a bipod mounted weapon. Does this mean that If I am familiar with my Pistol and then 2 brace it with 2 hand that counts as changing grip and i am unfamiliar with it? It sounds ridiculous but since the bipod is specifically mentioned that would mean shooting my long arm which is usually shot from my shoulder is treated as unfamiliar if i lie down with it and shoot from a bipod.

Honestly that makes perfect sense to me. If you've never shot from a bipod, or never used a two-handed pistol stance, yeah, you deserve a familiarity penalty even if you have shot that rifle or pistol before.

However, if you've had any sort of reasonable training with the weapon you will be familiar with shooting it in all its normal grips, or at least all the ones your trainers consider legitimate.

Originally Posted by MakDemonik

Third - How do Different Skills and skill specialties work with Familiarity? A Glock 18 has the same Grip, Caliber and Action as the Steyr TMP. One uses the Guns (Pistol) skill the other the Guns (SMG) skill. Would I still be familiar with the TMP if I never fired it?

I'd say that familiarity can span across weapons that require different Guns specialties. Why not?

Also nothing about RAW Guns (SMG) is well-considered.

Originally Posted by MakDemonik

And what if if im familiar with semi auto rifles, and pick up a rifle with semi, burst and full auto modes.
Do I have the penalty just because the full auto mode exists? Or can i shoot the second rifle without penalty as long as its semi auto adn get the penalty when i switch to full auto mode?

An automatic weapon with single shot mode is a semi-auto weapon when set to that mode.

Originally Posted by MakDemonik

Fourth - Defaults. Do they stack? Do they not? To a point?
If I have the Rifle skill but NOT the SMG skill. If i pick up a very unfamiliar gun for my rifle skill the familiarities can stack up up to -6 even though i have hundreds or thousands of hours put into that skill... But if I use any SMG at default is the maximum suddenly -2?

I'd stack penalties for familiarities and defaults. The alternative, as you say, is weird.

Originally Posted by MakDemonik

Which brings me to my last (bonus) peeve. The weird rule in B169. "If you have 6 familiarities with a skill you can roll to see with yo uare familiar with it"
For a rule as Familiarity, which in my opinion is on the higher end of the "Simulationist/pedantic" scale. Then giving an option like that is plain weird.
It implies that if im familiar with 6 revolvers i have a 50%+ chance of somehow knowing how to shoot a Glock 17 full auto.

Got to agree that that is weird.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by MakDemonik

I
It implies that if im familiar with 6 revolvers i have a 50%+ chance of somehow knowing how to shoot a Glock 17 full auto.

Your first hurdle is knowing that there is no such thing as a "full auto Glock 17". Even the rare Glock 18 is Burst Fire rather than Full Auto. This is probably an IQ-based Guns roll and if you have Familiarity only with revolvers you probably take significant penalties to it.

On the other hand i would rule that lack of familairity could never reduce your effective Skill level to lower than an Attribute-based Default. Anything else would be too complicated and gives some hint as to why Familairities are an optional rule.

[DangerousThing]

I just use a -2 to -4 penalty based on how different the new device is to the known ones.

With a gun, 8 hours in the range will remove the penalties.

[Celjabba]

The gun skill stacking familiarity penalties is broken.
Use -2 at worst.

Originally Posted by Kromm

In theory, these various -2 penalties are cumulative. In practice, I'd take the list as being possible reasons for a -2, and avoid stacking up to -6.

Originally Posted by Kromm

FWIW, I am extremely unfond of "stacking" familiarity penalties for firearms. I'd call it -1 for a different weapon within the specialty, doubling to -2 if the difference is in any of the categories listed in the Basic Set (action, caliber, aiming system, etc.). So going from an M16 to an AK-101 would be -1 (different 5.56×45mm NATO assault rifle), but going to an FN FAL (7.62×51mm NATO) would be -2. That's as big as it would get. The idea of stacking up to -4 or -6 seems excessive to me, and I wish I had caught that during my Nth pass over the firearms skills in GURPS Fourth Edition, which were seriously revised about 10 times during the playtest.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...&postcount=123
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...95&postcount=3

***

Also, the gun skill in Gurps divide rifled weapons between pistol/SMG/Rifle in a way that isn't necessarily what the real world name them but how they are used :

One- or two-handed, no stock, incapable of burst fire: Pistol.
One- or two-handed, no or minimal stock, capable of burst fire: SMG.
Two-handed, full stock, capable or incapable of burst fire: Rifle.

(There have been many houserules suggested to change this with fewer or otherwise divided specialties.)

In some case, a weapon is just at the edge between two skill. The full auto pistols, for example.
In some extreme case, a versatile weapon could/should be used with various Gun(xxx) skill specialties, depending on whether you are using burst fire, or you add/remove a stock.

I would rule that you need to familiarize yourself separately with each mode.
But some will say that if you have familiarity with a weapon, it carry whichever skill you end up using it with, just to keep it simple, and it is fine too.

The penalties for skill default between specialties and for familiarity do stack ! but only up to -4, not -8.

A GM could also assess additional TL penalties if he feel that there have been significant change between TL and you pick up an especially early/late TL weapon vs your training.
It is significant for pistol and rifle, probably not for SMG.

***

An exemple :

You have Guns(SMG)-14 (TL7).

You pick up a MP7, you never handled one before.
If you have familiarity with at least 6 weapons used with Guns(SMG), roll the skill.
Success, you have no penalty.
Failure (or you don't have 6 familiarities yet), GM assess a penalty, up to -2. Let's say -1 (caliber).
After 8 hours of use (including firing, cleaning/stripping, reading the manual, ...), that penalty goes away.

You add a full stock to the MP7 (assuming it can be done ? seem so, according to pictures) and start sniping from the shoulder :
Switch to Guns(rifle). In your case, Guns(SMG) at -2(default).

If you have familiarity with at least 6 weapons used with Guns(rifle), roll the skill.
Success, you have no penalty.
Failure (or you don't have 6 familiarities yet), GM assess a penalty, up to -2. Let's say -2 here (caliber and grip).
After 8 hours of use (including firing, cleaning/stripping, reading the manual, ...), that penalty goes away.

You don't add the 2 familiarities penalties !

So depending on the case, you roll against :
Guns(SMG)-14.
Guns(SMG)-13 (-1 for familiarity)
Guns(rifle)-10 (-2 for familiarity, -2 default SMG to rifle)
Guns(rifle)-12 (-2 default SMG to rifle)

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

Also, the gun skill in Gurps divide rifled weapons between pistol/SMG/Rifle in a way that isn't necessarily what the real world name them but how they are used :

One- or two-handed, no stock, incapable of burst fire: Pistol.
One- or two-handed, no or minimal stock, capable of burst fire: SMG.
Two-handed, full stock, capable or incapable of burst fire: Rifle.

Not true at all. Many SMGs have full stocks, and rifles with folded stocks still count as rifles. GURPS delineation of SMGs generally seems in line with the real world usage - pistol-caliber automatic weapons. Plus at least some PDWs.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Not true at all. Many SMGs have full stocks, and rifles with folded stocks still count as rifles. GURPS delineation of SMGs generally seems in line with the real world usage - pistol-caliber automatic weapons. Plus at least some PDWs.

The distinction come from the second post in this thread:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=21690

But as I said above, the realism of it has been discussed one way or another many times in the past 15 years :)

Since I know next to nothing about guns, it is enough for me however.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

The distinction come from the second post in this thread:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=21690

But as I said above, the realism of it has been discussed one way or another many times in the past 15 years :)

Since I know next to nothing about guns, it is enough for me however.

That's a thing Kromm wrote alright. But it's not consistent with the skill text in Characters, the weapon list in Characters, or High Tech.

[MakDemonik]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Your first hurdle is knowing that there is no such thing as a "full auto Glock 17". Even the rare Glock 18 is Burst Fire rather than Full Auto. This is probably an IQ-based Guns roll and if you have Familiarity only with revolvers you probably take significant penalties to it.

On the other hand i would rule that lack of familairity could never reduce your effective Skill level to lower than an Attribute-based Default. Anything else would be too complicated and gives some hint as to why Familairities are an optional rule.

Ah yes, I meant the Glock 18. I just saw it's ridiculous RoF 21 and assumed its auto.

As for the rule on attribute defaults. I would say that makes sense although RAW clearly disagrees, since the default is DX-4 while the skill description example shows a -6.

As for it being optional. I wish it would be easily dismissable as many other optional rules. But Some skills mention that "familiarity is critical here" since otherwise shooting a shoulder mounted, bolt-action, Anti materiel rifle is the same as a full auto short carbine.

I just wish there would be simpler way to keep track of familiarities that doesn't entail lists of ever ygun model i ever shor for more than 8 hours.