Driving & Defaults, again

[pfharlock]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

In basic training, I had two weeks of basic firearms instruction with the known range course and I think another three days of field fire (moving targets, gas-mask, and so on). Then I had another week of dynamic fire in the Infantry Training Battalion. Then I had rifle ranges, sustainment courses, field fire courses, kill-houses and dynamic fire ranges several times a year for the next eight years. If you can fit that into a day, the USMC really wants to talk to you.


A static human silhouette on an outdoor known range course on a typical shooting day is...
+1 for "no risk to self".
+1 for "no risk to others".
+1 for “no political or military stake in the outcome.”
+1 for typical outdoor range lighting and conditions.
+3 for known range.
- 10 for 100 yards.
+0 for SM
+4 Acc
+2 for three seconds Aiming
+1 for All-Out Attack: Determined.
+1 for Braced with a two point sling.
For a total +5 to hit.
If a coach or instructor is present he can give shooters an additional +1 by making a complimentary skill roll.
Guns (Rifles) Defaults to DX-4. A DX 10 shooter is rolling against an effective skill of 12 under these conditions and hits black with 74.1% of shots.

One point gives our DX 10 recruit Guns (Rifles)-9. Under the same conditions he hits black 74.5% at 300 yards. Can you get that kind of performance out of a neophyte after a day of instruction?

It sounds like your military training gave you a higher skill level than mine did.

Regarding all those pluses, I would not grant all of those so my guess is that in my games it comes out in the wash.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Can you teach someone to drive well enough in that day that they can hop in a squad car and chase a fugitive at 100mph on busy downtown streets? Or in an M-RAP on a military convoy under combined assault from HMGs, RPGs, and IEDs on a winding mountain goat trail in Afghanistan? Because that's what the GURPS Driving skill does.

Do you mean to suggest that no professional vehicle operator without combat or chase experience has a point in the skill?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by pfharlock

It sounds like your military training gave you a higher skill level than mine did.

I was a grunt, so that makes sense. You were probably better at doing whatever it was your MoS was about than I was.

Regarding all those pluses, I would not grant all of those so my guess is that in my games it comes out in the wash.

Those modifiers are all RAW. See p. B548 and GURPS Tactical Shooting p. 9.

[pfharlock]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Those modifiers are all RAW. See p. B548 and GURPS Tactical Shooting p. 9.

I've never read the tactical shooting supplement, but I do not doubt that they are accurate.

In my games for shooting I typically give range penalties and aim bonuses including bonuses for improved sights and multiple aim maneuvers up to the max, and I think I typically give the bracing bonus as well.

That's it for my games. I find that enough to keep up with. I'm always very concerned with the pace of combat because my experience has been that players get bored with too much crunch.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by pfharlock

Yes, I gave my viewpoint, then gave a page number where the basic set says the same thing that I said. I'm the only one so far to quote the basic set with a page number.

No, you didn't, because the Basic Rules don't tell you that you can learn Easy Skills in a day or two with "normal Training". I may not have them in front of me, but I remember that much (or rather don't remember it).

Originally Posted by pfharlock

That being said, I'm not denying the study rules, but as someone else has already pointed out, you are misusing them to say something other than what they were trying to say.

Yes, you are. ;) They don't tell you that with normal study 8 hours is going to yield 1 CP. Do they contain ways to get that result? Absolutely! They just aren't the "normal" rules.

[pfharlock]

Originally Posted by Otaku

No, you didn't, because the Basic Rules don't tell you that you can learn Easy Skills in a day or two with "normal Training". I may not have them in front of me, but I remember that much (or rather don't remember it).



Yes, you are. ;) They don't tell you that with normal study 8 hours is going to yield 1 CP. Do they contain ways to get that result? Absolutely! They just aren't the "normal" rules.

Yes I did and to repeat read the "difficulty level" section on page B168

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by pfharlock

Yes I did and to repeat read the "difficulty level" section on page B168

Excerpt I can't; thought I established that. All I have on hand right now is 3e. So... are you telling me that it is RAW that you can get 1 CP into a skill through just one or two days of normal study? Seriously, I don't remember that at all. I will remind myself at this point that maybe I just misread the 4e rules.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by pfharlock

Yes I did and to repeat read the "difficulty level" section on page B168

That section has nothing whatsoever to do with learning rates. The training/learning rules aren't in the Skills section of the Basic Set at all; they're elsewhere.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Excerpt I can't; thought I established that. All I have on hand right now is 3e. So... are you telling me that it is RAW that you can get 1 CP into a skill through just one or two days of normal study? Seriously, I don't remember that at all. I will remind myself at this point that maybe I just misread the 4e rules.

No, it isn't. I'm not sure where he's getting his information, but the shortest 'gain CP via training' rate that's available in the Basic Set is 50 hours per CP or so.

EDIT: Though note that the rules for gaining CP via training are basically just made up and have little, if anything, to do with reality; they're not intended to hold up to any actual scrutiny, they're intended to provide a gameable abstraction.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by pfharlock

I've never read the tactical shooting supplement, but I do not doubt that they are accurate.

In my games for shooting I typically give range penalties and aim bonuses including bonuses for improved sights and multiple aim maneuvers up to the max, and I think I typically give the bracing bonus as well.

That's it for my games. I find that enough to keep up with. I'm always very concerned with the pace of combat because my experience has been that players get bored with too much crunch.

The rest of the modifiers aren't relevant to combat, or really to almost any rolls that a shooter will ever have to make in an actual game. They are modifiers for non combat range shooting. The main use seems to be in discussions like this one.

Originally Posted by pfharlock

Yes I did and to repeat read the "difficulty level" section on page B168

Okay, I'm sorry, but I just don't see the relevance. Can you explain?

Tactical Shooting p. 46-47 says that after 16 hours of instruction shooters are still shooting at default but have familiarity with a weapon. It says that military shooters (and here it means combat arms personnel) get a minimum of 115 hours of training including dynamic fire, to have either two points in Guns or a full style.

If you do as you suggest and give a shooter a full point in Guns after a day of instruction, you'll have DX 10 Skill 10 guy hitting a human target at 30 yards 9.3% of the time in an actual firefight with sighted shots after only a day of training. Which is as good as police shooters with 80 hours of training in the real world.