Driving & Defaults, again

[pfharlock]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Sort of... I brought it up because Easy Skills still aren't learned in a day or two with "normal" study. Intensive Training or other special circumstances, sure. The descriptions you gave, I was assuming "normal" learning circumstances applied equally across the board. One or two days even for an Easy Skill is pretty great. That's enough time to eliminate familiarity penalties, though.

No offense but I can teach someone how to drive and or shoot a gun in a day. Both of these are skills in gurps and neither require 200 hours of rigorous study to be able to do.

Now you aren't going to be great at either of those things after only a day, but if you practised for a week (with or without an instructor by that point), by the end of that week you'll be pretty good.

I suppose I'm making a case for common sense here, and the rules on the page indicated back me up.

That said they also back you up, (I've read the study rules before)

My original post was about picking reasonable levels for newly created skills. This is very much a matter of taste and opinion for the gm, luckily we have reams of prebuilt skills to use as examples to glean where the goal posts are.

Really the best way to pick the right category for the skill is to look at other skills in that category and think (does this thing that I'm building belong here beside these other items). If the answer is yes then you've probably found the right place for it. If it seems out of place then maybe bump it up or down.

My goal posts are, is it the kind of thing you only need to be shown once, then it's easy. Can you learn it in like say one class, average, 2 year to 4 year degree, hard, does it require PhD levels of study or life long learning ok that's probably very hard.

Thats just in my head though, and it's my impression of where other skills I've seen have fallen. Maybe the designers had another measuring stick in mind. The bottom of 168 says to me that my goal posts are not far off.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by pfharlock

No offense but I can teach someone how to drive and or shoot a gun in a day.

At default.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

The 200h > 1 CP is not, by my reading, a two way rule.

If you spend 200h of learning (wich may mean 100h of intensive training or one year of routine job practice, ...) , and use the study rules, you may get 1 free CP toward a skill - in play.
But it doesn't mean spending 1 CP in a skill have to require 200h of study.

It's true that how much in-game training is required to justify spending earned cp to learn a new skill or trait is vague. Earning experience and spending it is very much a meta-game thing and spending cp probably shouldn't be tied to in-game measurements in a simulationist way,

The 200 hour rule is in there mostly so that ludicrous situations along the lines of "You mean that the only way I can learn to speak the Perflugian language is by killing monsters?" don't come up.

Few GMs may have the players using the Training rules as a meta-game thing but the characters can come up against situations where they need to learn new skills in game without doing murder hobo-ish things to the local goblins.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

At default.

But they can do it at default even without the day of training.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

But they can do it at default even without the day of training.

This is were the half-point of Gurps 3e was great.

There is a gap between

-No training (but know the skill exist and have some idea how to proceed from seeing it done, hearing about it, ...)> roll at default allowed but no techniques, no special benefits, and (not sure if it is an houserule or actual rule) , no floating to another attribute and always suffer familiarities penalty if applicable.
-Fully Trained : 1cp in the skill, can use techniques, can float to another attribute, can buy off familiarities penalties, get any special benefits if available.

There should be a 'little training' level, which allow rolling at the 1cp level but no other benefits.

Since there isn't (except for the dabbler perk), I tend to say that minimal training justify spending 1 cp in the skill, since you can attempt a default roll simply by knowing that the skill exist in the gameworld, and even a day of training is much better than watching it done on TV once ...

The other way would be to purchase part of a dabbler perk and keep the other part on reserve for future training...

Celjabba

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by pfharlock

No offense but I can teach someone how to drive and or shoot a gun in a day. Both of these are skills in gurps and neither require 200 hours of rigorous study to be able to do.

The question isn't can you teach them but:

1) What methods are you using?
2) What is their skill relative to the controlling attribute?
3) How long will this skill "last"?

To be blunt, sounds like you're mistaking helping someone eliminate situational or familiarity penalties, though I realize that GURPS isn't designed for such precise measurements. Reality checking the situation, there are skills that I "learned" quickly in a day or two (or less) and... as soon as I stopped using them I forgot them. I mean, things like "Learned this yesterday in class, by next class I need a massive refresher to get back to where I was... and if there was no 'next class' it was just gone."

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

But they can do it at default even without the day of training.

Only if the character in question has actually been exposed to it before. If the only gun play a person has ever seen has been laser-blasters in Power Rangers, they shouldn't be rolling at the normal Default to use a gun. If a medieval knight is transported to Manhattan, not only is he going to have no default usage of Driving (Car), but that Midwesterner with the skill is taking a huge penalty because he's never driving in a city the size of New York before, let alone NYC itself.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Otaku

The question isn't can you teach them but:

1) What methods are you using?
2) What is their skill relative to the controlling attribute?
3) How long will this skill "last"?

To be blunt, sounds like you're mistaking helping someone eliminate situational or familiarity penalties, though I realize that GURPS isn't designed for such precise measurements.

Bingo. Remember, too, that in GURPS 4e, routine conditions grant at least a +4 to the skill check. That means that most people, once they get rid of the familiarity penalties you mentioned, do a pretty decent drive to the grocery store. It's when you get snow, or a busy interstate, or some other such obstacle, that you separate out the ones who have really learned Driving in the sense that GURPS means.

I can tell you that after my first day behind the wheel, I was NOT a qualified driver. And 23 years after first beginning to learn the skill, I still avoid I-25 during its busy period because I know that it's more road than I can handle.

(Note to the OP: The subject of whether or not most drivers are working from default or actually have a point in Driving is an old debate in GURPS. Every game has similar flashpoints, including Hero. ;) )

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Only if the character in question has actually been exposed to it before.

Yes, I'm aware of that, but the point remains: if you get a default, you get it without a day of training.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Yes, I'm aware of that, but the point remains: if you get a default, you get it without a day of training.

You don't get a default before you've had an automobile's controls explained to you.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

You don't get a default before you've had an automobile's controls explained to you.

Familiarity with that sort of thing is generally covered by your TL.