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Old 05-26-2011, 06:22 AM   #21
Harald387
 
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Default Re: [MH] Charms for Sages

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamech View Post
Personally I would up the duration to something like a week or a month. Also add an AoE.
So
Miss Me: Lesser Control Chance; Area of effect ; 300 lbs; +2 to defense (broad category); 1 month total energy 31
This affects the whole team, and can be kept online pretty much forever.
As a general rule, I try to avoid things that will make my GM upset, like 'Giving everyone on the team 60 points worth of advantages forever, for free.'

At the very least, (as a GM) I'd be invoking the 'lesser effects that are permanently sustained through repeated castings are no longer lesser effects' guideline, and bump that energy cost up to 93.

EDIT: I might even go so far as to say that most effects with more than a brief duration (with some exceptions, like wards) are AUTOMATICALLY Greater Effects.

Last edited by Harald387; 05-26-2011 at 06:30 AM.
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Old 05-26-2011, 06:37 AM   #22
mlangsdorf
 
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Default Re: [MH] Charms for Sages

I agree with Harald387, and I'd probably put the dividing line generally around +5 energy in combined Area Effect and Duration. So giving everyone in 3 yards a bonus for 1 hour is a Lesser effect, and giving a single person a bonus for 6 hours is a lesser effect, but jamming the guns of everyone in 30 yards is always a Greater effect.
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Old 05-26-2011, 03:47 PM   #23
vitruvian
 
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Default Re: [MH] Charms for Sages

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harald387 View Post
As a general rule, I try to avoid things that will make my GM upset, like 'Giving everyone on the team 60 points worth of advantages forever, for free.'

At the very least, (as a GM) I'd be invoking the 'lesser effects that are permanently sustained through repeated castings are no longer lesser effects' guideline, and bump that energy cost up to 93.

EDIT: I might even go so far as to say that most effects with more than a brief duration (with some exceptions, like wards) are AUTOMATICALLY Greater Effects.
I see no repeated casting there, just more energy put towards duration, therefore no reason for the guideline to be interpreted as a greater effect. And even if it were frequently renewed, there are some things that guideline explicitly doesn't apply to, like wards being lesser effects that are usually renewed over and over.

On the other hand, for personal buffs in particular, I could certainly see anything with a duration greater than a day incurring this penalty as a useful house rule.
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Old 05-26-2011, 04:27 PM   #24
Lamech
 
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Default Re: [MH] Charms for Sages

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harald387
At the very least, (as a GM) I'd be invoking the 'lesser effects that are permanently sustained through repeated castings are no longer lesser effects' guideline, and bump that energy cost up to 93.

EDIT: I might even go so far as to say that most effects with more than a brief duration (with some exceptions, like wards) are AUTOMATICALLY Greater Effects.
Umm... greater/lesser depending on duration is going to run into trouble if you buy a grimoire. (Which sage should do). Grimoires have the effects pre-decided, but things like duration are decided afterwards. I suppose you could say the changes can't go further then what would be "believable". But eh...

Even so, if someone being able to lift an extra X lbs is believable to do for one (hour/day/week), it will be just as believable for them to be able to lift that extra amount for a month, year, whatever. People's strength doesn't normally fluctuate. A lesser strengthen body effect to something like ST or HT is going to be more believable if it comes on gradually and sticks around. For some effects I could see a longer duration being a problem (getting a lucky break once would be reasonable, getting it once a day might be silly).

Now, I can see why you might say some of these buffs are unbalanced. But... not the case here. (So we're told.) The sage feels like his magic isn't doing enough, so if you start houseruling for balance against someone who isn't strong enough, your doing it wrong. He needs to be more effective, these are one way of doing that.

P.S. Where did that guideline come from?
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Old 05-26-2011, 05:11 PM   #25
Harald387
 
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Default Re: [MH] Charms for Sages

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Originally Posted by Lamech View Post
P.S. Where did that guideline come from?
I'm quoting mlangsdorf regarding it, and he's apparently quoting the Rev, though I've no idea of the original source.

The basic point still stands: It's Not On(tm) for a character (or the entire group!) to receive hundreds of bonus points in permanent buffs from spells. If these things are going to be permanent (or semi-permanent), they should by all rights get bought as Extra Attribute with the appropriate limitations (like Requires Maintenance, mana dependent, etc). The question isn't simply one of believability - though I'm more likely to believe 'He seemed stronger because he was on PCP' as an excuse than 'Yeah, I know he looks like he's a lightweight, and he's never had a day in the gym, but he can TOTALLY benchpress 300 lbs!' - but one of balance, playability, and the all-holy 'not making the GM want to punch me in the face'.
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Old 05-26-2011, 06:24 PM   #26
Nakomus
 
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Default Re: [MH] Charms for Sages

The long duration buffs also have the disadvantage that while they are up the recipient cannot benefit from any other buff based on the same effect without the caster ending the first spell. You may find yourself having to drop month long buff frequently to replace it with something more appropriate to the situation at hand. At which point, you may as well have started with a lower duration.

This is more of an issue for the AoE buff that benefits the whole party. With a charm that just buffs the wearer they could just take it off and put it in their pocket if they needed a different benefit.
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Old 05-26-2011, 06:29 PM   #27
mlangsdorf
 
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Default Re: [MH] Charms for Sages

See here:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...21&postcount=4

The question was casting a subtle effect to prevent aging by a month, and then extending the duration forever. The Rev said that even if the original effect would be lesser, the ability to extend it forever basically made it a greater effect.
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Old 05-26-2011, 06:40 PM   #28
PK
 
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Default Re: [MH] Charms for Sages

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
See here:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...21&postcount=4

The question was casting a subtle effect to prevent aging by a month, and then extending the duration forever. The Rev said that even if the original effect would be lesser, the ability to extend it forever basically made it a greater effect.
Yes, but that doesn't mean that the choice between Lesser/Greater depends on duration. The conclusion of my post was that any cessation of aging was a Greater effect -- the duration specifically doesn't affect it. (The long version essentially adds that, if your player complains that, "But what if I just halt aging for a month? That's believable!" that you can point out that such a spell can still be extended indefinitely -- in other words, duration is a red herring.)

An important thing to realize about the Lesser/Greater split is that it's 100% in the hands of the GM because it's a tool to help maintain balance. If you're worried something will break the game, then make it a Greater effect. It's entirely possible that some abilities will be Greater effects in one GM's campaign, while across town, they're Lesser effects in another's -- this is fine. Magic isn't physics; it's about as subjective as any in-game ability can get.
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Old 05-26-2011, 07:39 PM   #29
Lamech
 
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Default Re: [MH] Charms for Sages

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harald387 View Post
I'm quoting mlangsdorf regarding it, and he's apparently quoting the Rev, though I've no idea of the original source.
Hmm... I do note if mlangsdorf doesn't want to go the buff route that is fine. There are definitely other ways to do good with magic.

Quote:
The basic point still stands: It's Not On(tm) for a character (or the entire group!) to receive hundreds of bonus points in permanent buffs from spells. If these things are going to be permanent (or semi-permanent), they should by all rights get bought as Extra Attribute with the appropriate limitations (like Requires Maintenance, mana dependent, etc).
If you want to go that route the buffs would have the limits, granted by familiar, magic, nuisance effect eats slot for spell, and maintenance of some weird flavor. Or minus 50-80%...
But I think this is kind of silly. Someone is using an ability to help their team. If the witch was say... handing out charms and replacing them when used are you going to charge for that? In a normal magic game do you charge for it if the mage hands out missile shields and haste spells every morning? If someone has say healing and can regrow the limbs of anyone in the party will you charge for that? If someone picked up a resurrection do you make the recipient pay for an extra life?
The whole point of support abilities is to support your team, they don't do much of anything if your allies pay for them.
Quote:
The question isn't simply one of believability - ... - but one of balance, playability, and the all-holy 'not making the GM want to punch me in the face'.
Right, but again if the mage isn't powerful enough as it is, why limit what they can do? If your having trouble with your sage solving every problem with magic, make more things greater effects. On the other hand if the sage feels isn't contributing enough, and wants to be a party buffer then let him buff!

And you can do a lot of these buffs as weaker, greater effects. For example
Miss me: Greater control chance (5) AoE (2) 1 week (9) +2 dodge (4) 300 lbs (3) 69
Give a +2 to dodge rolls
(Not that this will solve any problems relating to the GM disliking support abilities.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakomus

The long duration buffs also have the disadvantage that while they are up the recipient cannot benefit from any other buff based on the same effect without the caster ending the first spell. You may find yourself having to drop month long buff frequently to replace it with something more appropriate to the situation at hand. At which point, you may as well have started with a lower duration.

This is more of an issue for the AoE buff that benefits the whole party. With a charm that just buffs the wearer they could just take it off and put it in their pocket if they needed a different benefit.
Right, it chews up a spell slot. Although charms chew up one of your charm slots.

Oh and here is a fun one:
Protection Detail: Lesser control, mind, body, spirit, undead, and magic (25) duration 6 months (17) 300 lbs (3) total 45
Ward against well everything. You'll probably need to recast this frequently. Note splitting it up into multiple effects is probably a good idea, but this is more convenient.
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Old 05-27-2011, 05:44 PM   #30
Harald387
 
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Default Re: [MH] Charms for Sages

Luck, be a Lady
For one night, everything just seems to go the subject's way. It's almost like he's leading a charmed life.

Lesser Control Chance; enhances Luck [15] to Ridiculous Luck [60]; subject up to 300 lbs for 12 hours; total cost 59.
Note: The Luck granted by this spell cannot be used on rolls to influence spellcasting!

(This might not be suitable for a Sage, since it *is* pretty expensive. Still, a Sage with a good grimoire should be able to pull it off... Start the 12-hour timer when the charm is broken, naturally!)

Last edited by Harald387; 05-27-2011 at 05:52 PM.
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