05-01-2011, 05:50 AM | #1 |
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
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confusing language in Monster Hunters 1
I am having trouble interpreting the sentence, "Thaumatology is a prerequisite for any Path skill, and no Path skill can ever exceed either the caster’s
Thaumatology skill or (12 + Magery level); theoretical knowledge is just as important as magical power." This is on page 32 of MH1:Champions. Does this mean "no path skill can ever exceed max(Thaumatology skill, 12+Magery level)" or "no path skill can ever exceed min(Thaumatology skill, 12+Magery level)". I suspect the latter interpretation is what is intended. If that is true, I would suggest rewriting this text, perhaps as follows. Path skills require theoretical knowledge of magic, represented by Thaumatology skill, and inherent magical power, represented by Magery level. Theoretical knowledge is just as important as magical power. Accordingly, every Path skill of a caster must be less than or equal to the lower of Thaumatology skill and (12 + Magery level). |
05-01-2011, 06:05 AM | #2 | |
GURPS FAQ Keeper
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
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Re: confusing language in Monster Hunters 1
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(Path <= Thaumatology) || (Path <= (Magery+12)) The statement is true whether at least one of its components is true. If you want to check this: (Path<=min(Thaum,Mag+12)) you should write "Path skill can never exceed both Thaumatology and Magery+12". Which is the same as (Path<=Thaumatology && Path<=(Magery+12)) Of course, I'm not a telepath, so I don't what the author wanted to write. |
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05-01-2011, 06:08 AM | #3 | |
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Re: confusing language in Monster Hunters 1
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05-01-2011, 06:20 AM | #4 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: The ASS of the world, mainly Valencia, Spain (Europe)
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Re: confusing language in Monster Hunters 1
It's the later option, complicated by the fact that the default you get from Thaumatology can not exceed 12, forcing you to actually purchase the skills if you want more.
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The sentence should be parsed as Path_skill<=min(Thaumatology,12+magery). Note the italicized either word. It's what makes it turn from A OR B into A AND B. There's an implicit "whichever is lower". |
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05-01-2011, 08:30 AM | #5 | |
GURPS FAQ Keeper
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
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Re: confusing language in Monster Hunters 1
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05-01-2011, 08:36 AM | #6 |
Join Date: May 2008
Location: CA
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Re: confusing language in Monster Hunters 1
"Can never exceed X or Y" very clearly means "Can never be (>X OR >Y)", which is the same as saying "Can never be >X AND Can never be >Y".
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05-01-2011, 08:42 AM | #7 | |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
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Re: confusing language in Monster Hunters 1
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English does use "either X or Y" in both ways - exclusive or inclusive - but it's an inherently ambiguous construct when used for an inclusive or. I personally prefer to avoid ambugity by using "and/or" instead of "or" for inclusive or, but I'm a programmer. Ambiguity in statements meant to produce a true-false value makes me seriously uncomfortable. :P To put it another way, if either can be a constraint on maximum skill value, then by definition both must be constraints on maximum skill value at the same time. The alternative requires significant additional verbage explaining which to use under what circumstances, which wasn't provided.
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05-01-2011, 08:54 AM | #8 | |||
GURPS FAQ Keeper
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
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Re: confusing language in Monster Hunters 1
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Quote:
Path cannot exceed either Thaumatology or Magery+12 is the same as Either path cannot exceed Thaumatology or path cannot exceed Magery+12. So, the following statement must return True for the character to be rules-legal: ((P<=T) || (P<=M+12)) Quote:
(P<=T) && (P<=M+12), we should've said and instead of or. |
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05-01-2011, 09:02 AM | #9 | |
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
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Re: confusing language in Monster Hunters 1
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In particular, logical constructs such as AND, OR, and NOT often work a bit differently in natural languages than they do in logic class. They can even be ambiguous. For example, in the sentence "I like to eat apples and pears", the things I like to eat is the union of two sets, whereas in "I like my sex-partners young and female", the natural interpretation is an intersection, yet both sentences are using an "and". With this ambiguity in mind, I think PK would be well advised to find some way of phrasing his rule that avoids use of a negated OR. NOT(a OR b) == NOT(a) AND NOT(b) is great set theory but can be confusing in natural English. |
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05-01-2011, 10:07 AM | #10 |
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Re: confusing language in Monster Hunters 1
It actually seems pretty unambiguous to me. Consider the parallel construction, "no cow's high jump can exceed either 6 times its length or the current distance to the Moon."
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monster hunters, ritual path magic |
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