Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > The Fantasy Trip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-12-2023, 10:02 AM   #31
Kolk
 
Join Date: Nov 2022
Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

I'm replacing the small dial with a large one

Large shield test

10000 SwordmanA(ST11,DX12,DEF2)(Shortsword Large Shield):
Life->5741
Unconscious->729
Escape->1275
Death->2255
------VS------------
10000 TribemanA(ST11,DX13,DEF0)(Shortsword):
Life->4348
Unconscious->880
Escape->644
Death->4128

less dexterity, greater DEF, but probably doesn't help much compared to a small shield
Kolk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2023, 10:05 AM   #32
Kolk
 
Join Date: Nov 2022
Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

gonna change a few things now

10000 Ranger(ST10,DX12,DEF3)(Cutlass Leather Armor Small Shield):
Life->5544
Unconscious->725
Escape->2123
Death->1608
------VS------------
10000 TribemanA(ST11,DX13,DEF0)(Shortsword ):
Life->4572
Unconscious->984
Escape->884
Death->3560

basically like a large shield test
Kolk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2023, 10:10 AM   #33
Kolk
 
Join Date: Nov 2022
Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

and finally a lot of DEF

10000 Guard(ST11,DX9,DEF5)(Shortsword Chainmail Large Shield):
Life->6574
Unconscious->521
Escape->2172
Death->733
------VS------------
10000 TribemanA(ST11,DX13,DEF0)(Shortsword):
Life->3672
Unconscious->992
Escape->1344
Death->3992

and the results are a bit better

generally armor helps, and when fighting with several warriors gives mood and character to the characters, but economically it is probably not worth much. If I wanted to do a big battle, it's probably better to spend money on poorly armed warriors :).

Well, the research continues
Kolk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2023, 10:35 AM   #34
hcobb
 
hcobb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

Given that small shields are "free" for heroes (if not wizards), why exclude it? Or at the very least the off-handed dagger stab.
__________________
-HJC

Last edited by hcobb; 02-13-2023 at 03:10 AM.
hcobb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2023, 08:42 PM   #35
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Durham, NC
Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

In all three of your tests the tribesman should have had a small shield. Sorry but not a valid comparison without it.
Axly Suregrip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2023, 11:15 PM   #36
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

My take on armour, by which I mean anything that protects you and costs DX. A small shield is just a nice bonus for using a one-handed weapon, it doesn't count as armour for this purpose. One level of Toughness can be considered armour if it's the only reason you're taking IQ 9. The de facto effect of armour tends to be a lower ST and higher DX for the same adjDX.
  • In a duel at 32 points, not quite worth it. The downsides slightly outweigh the upsides. Having no armour, a higher ST and same adjDX gives a slightly better character. You can play an armoured character for aesthetic reasons and be only slightly inefficient.
  • In a skirmish (several on several) it's worth it if your character is significantly more likely to get hit than most characters on your side, which in practice means frontline fighters who go in harm's way. It's generally not worth it if you are rear echelon: archer, wizard, etc.
  • Most campaigns contain a series of skirmishes, each of which is biased in favour of the party. In such a campaign armour can be very useful, since it reduces casualties in a battle which you still win.
  • In a battle against monsters rather than humanoids it's hard to say. Against, say, a wolf, armour is kind of handy because it doesn't do a lot of damage and you can shrug off hits. Against a monster with lots of armour you need every point of ST for damage purposes and armoured characters have a tendency to irrelevance.

Last edited by David Bofinger; 02-14-2023 at 11:22 PM. Reason: monster with armour
David Bofinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2023, 11:30 AM   #37
Kolk
 
Join Date: Nov 2022
Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

thank you, David for your answer, your suggestions are very interesting to me.
I will definitely try them out in future simulations
Kolk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2023, 02:57 PM   #38
Bill_in_IN
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Indiana
Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
My take on armour, by which I mean anything that protects you and costs DX. A small shield is just a nice bonus for using a one-handed weapon, it doesn't count as armour for this purpose. One level of Toughness can be considered armour if it's the only reason you're taking IQ 9. The de facto effect of armour tends to be a lower ST and higher DX for the same adjDX.
  • In a duel at 32 points, not quite worth it. The downsides slightly outweigh the upsides. Having no armour, a higher ST and same adjDX gives a slightly better character. You can play an armoured character for aesthetic reasons and be only slightly inefficient.
  • In a skirmish (several on several) it's worth it if your character is significantly more likely to get hit than most characters on your side, which in practice means frontline fighters who go in harm's way. It's generally not worth it if you are rear echelon: archer, wizard, etc.
  • Most campaigns contain a series of skirmishes, each of which is biased in favour of the party. In such a campaign armour can be very useful, since it reduces casualties in a battle which you still win.
  • In a battle against monsters rather than humanoids it's hard to say. Against, say, a wolf, armour is kind of handy because it doesn't do a lot of damage and you can shrug off hits. Against a monster with lots of armour you need every point of ST for damage purposes and armoured characters have a tendency to irrelevance.
That's decent summary.
Bill_in_IN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2023, 05:25 PM   #39
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

Something I forgot:

The assumption in the above modelling is that armour costs DX, you want constant adjDX, so armour requires more DX and hence requires a sacrifice of ST. Conversely if you don't have armour you can have more ST and do more damage.

This is mostly valid for 32 point fighter characters. But for more experienced fighter characters there's a quasi-maximum ST of 13 (for one-handed fighters) and 15 (for two-handed pole weapon users). Above this you don't get nearly as much benefit from increasing your ST. So for experienced fighters armour becomes more attractive.

For wizard characters ST is usually fixed for other reasons like racial minimum or excessive fragility. The tradeoff tends to be DX vs IQ vs armour. As I see it armour should nearly always lose that argument.
David Bofinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2023, 05:30 PM   #40
hcobb
 
hcobb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

Players who run armored wizards or rogues (most especially ST 6 elves), could perhaps be invited to account for the weight their character is attempting (and failing) to carry. They'll get away with this only if they cleverly choose 3oz daggers as their only weapons.
__________________
-HJC
hcobb is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.