Only Kind of Unkillable

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Unkillable has no pain tolerance built in.

Yes, I was thinking of Supernatural Durability which sounds like a (much enhanced) version of what you're going for. It's also what a lot of the nigh unkillable monster races get.

I think the "looks dead" bit only applies if you're unconscious and succeed at the roll only due to HtK. I think of that as a Feature, or at best a Perk. Regardless, it has no real bearing on what I'm trying to do here.

Yes, that's how the "looks dead" works but in a campaign where enemies are likely to make sure you're dead it's certainly more than a perk.

My apologies if I wasn't clear. I want a trait where a character is treated normally with regards to death checks (has to make them at each multiple of -1xHP, automatically dies at -5xHP), but so long as they don't drop to -10xHP they'll recover normally, as though they were alive, and will come back to life at positive HP, much like with Unkillable 2.

That's a bit clearer (to me anyway). Given that UK1 characters will heal normally until they reach -10xHP (same as what you describe for healing purposes), the only real differences are:
1) You take more checks to incapacitate you.
- You'll tend to pass out from unconsciousness a lot more than death checks since consciousness is per turn and death is once per threshold. Not really much or a limitation.

2) You appear dead.
- Usually an advantage since opponents that might otherwise polish you off won't hack up your corpse for the final blow. Presumably you also get some form of plot protection such that bad things don't happen to your corpse unless you're in a bad situation to begin with (dying next to where a bomb is about to go off... or in a burning building). All of this is definitely an advantage over Unkillable 1: most opponents won't finish you off and you could "fake" death your way out of custody where an UK1 guy will be hauled off and handcuffed to a hospital bed. Reminds me of the Highlander episodes where he "died" to get off someone's radar for a bit.

3) You automatically pass out at a fixed point if you haven't prior.
- Passing out at half (give or take) the damage that would kill you (for real) is seems like a feature, perhaps a quirk at most. After all, passing out could enhance your survival (as you're taking quite a bit of damage) and per #2 there are advantages to being presumed dead.

4) You can't benefit from external healing, but only when apparently "dead".
- Not sure how often this will come up since (with moderate stats) you'll pass out more often unless you're taking lots of damage. Even when it does, you're benefiting from #2.

To sum up, as a GM I'd presume if you wanted this variant you were building someone that would be able to maximize the benefits. He would "die" when it was convenient but otherwise have all the benefits of being really hard to permanently kill. Arguably, it gives you an advantage over Unkillable 1 since all things being held equal there's similar staying power while your variant can "fake" death pretty much at will.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by naloth

Yes, that's how the "looks dead" works but in a campaign where enemies are likely to make sure you're dead it's certainly more than a perk.

I can't see an Exotic Advantage that lets you appear to be dead whenever you want being worth more than [5] - it's basically Switchable Disadvantage (a Perk) without an activation roll. As the Hard to Kill effect is completely out of your control and doesn't hold up to most scrutiny, it's at best a Perk.

Originally Posted by naloth

1) You take more checks to incapacitate you.

Your analysis here is indeed correct - this aspect itself is relatively minor.

Originally Posted by naloth

2) You appear dead.

This is a big part of where we differ. Appearing dead is probably a Feature. The benefit is basically just that enemies are marginally less likely to finish you off (and that's only if they don't know you have this Advantage). The drawback is that friendlies are more likely to leave you behind - or even dispose of your corpse in a battlefield situation.

One cause of our difference, however, is that you're assuming the corpse gets plot protection. It doesn't. While you won't rot (your body will actually be regenerating, albeit slowly), in general, the GM should check every few hours to see if any scavengers show up - if they do, they'll cause further damage to your corpse (eating part of it), potentially sending you beyond -10xHP. Additionally, most sentient foes (and allies who aren't in the know) are going to have ways of disposing of corpses that are likely to end poorly for you - burning will kill you outright, burial in anything but an extremely shallow grave is going to result in a hellish cycle of revive-dig-asphyxiate, submersion will have similar effects (and you'll probably be eaten by fish), and most people who will simply dump a body have the wits to do so in a location where it will be quickly disposed of by local scavengers.

In short, if you die, you are almost completely reliant on your allies to find your body and protect it until you revive.

Originally Posted by naloth

3) You automatically pass out at a fixed point if you haven't prior.

The death here is far worse than just passing out. Passing out with Unkillable 1 means* you get an HT roll every hour to wake up, and can behave normally (albeit with halved Move and Dodge) thereafter, provided you don't take further damage. With this trait, you get an HT roll to recover 1 HP every day, and you don't wake up until you either succeed at another HT roll for passing a death threshold* or get back to full HP, which is going to take at least a day and probably over a week. If you are being cared for by allies, a character with Unkillable 1 can be woken up so that he can limp along on his own, while a character with this trait has to be carried around until he revives. This is the primary drawback of this modification.

*These are houserules. The first, as I noted previously, is I think necessary to have Unkillable 1 actually be worth its cost, and it seems in keeping with the spirit of the Advantage (you don't have to worry about being at -1xHP and lower). The second I think is arguably just a Feature, and appropriate for Unkillable 2 (and possibly 3) as well - you can revive earlier, but might revive later.

Originally Posted by naloth

4) You can't benefit from external healing, but only when apparently "dead".

Particularly in DF (note this is for a race in that setting), the inability to benefit from magical healing is a pretty serious problem. Now, it only occurs while you're dead, so it's not a massive Disadvantage overall, but it is a significant drawback compared to Unkillable 1.

Originally Posted by naloth

To sum up, as a GM I'd presume if you wanted this variant you were building someone that would be able to maximize the benefits. He would "die" when it was convenient but otherwise have all the benefits of being really hard to permanently kill. Arguably, it gives you an advantage over Unkillable 1 since all things being held equal there's similar staying power while your variant can "fake" death pretty much at will.

The actual intent is to be able to have a character in rather severe conditions with a much lower chance of having to either dish out significant funds for magical resurrection or make up a new one, but at the same time have the potential for actual permanent death still be there.

As for faking your death, yes this gives you the option to kill yourself without necessarily dying permanently. You are entirely reliant on either your allies rescuing your body shortly thereafter or your foes conveniently leaving your corpse in a safe place that's easy to escape from once you revive. You're also reliant on your foes not suspecting you of having the trait (and for the race in question, this isn't all that likely of a scenario), as if they do they'll either hack your body to pieces or burn it to ash.

[Blood Legend]

Unkillable 1 (Coma Trade-In -10%) [45]
Death Checks are turned back on and become Coma Checks. If you fail a coma check, you fall into a coma and you do not regain consciousness until you have positive HP. Everything else is unchanged, you still heal normally and you still die permanently at -10xHP. This coma is indistinguishable from death without super science, magic or divine knowledge.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Blood Legend

Unkillable 1 (Coma Trade-In -10%) [45]
Death Checks are turned back on and become Coma Checks. If you fail a coma check, you fall into a coma and you do not regain consciousness until you have positive HP. Everything else is unchanged, you still heal normally and you still die permanently at -10xHP. This coma is indistinguishable from death without super science, magic or divine knowledge.

Eh, "Coma" is a specific Mortal Condition on p.429 of Campaigns and just like the possessor of this advantage is not actually "dead" he's not in a "coma" either. The effects don't match the Condition at all.

There isn't quite anything in the standard nomenclature that does match the desired effects. The Trait has to defi9ne its' own rules and if I were GM I'd have deci8ded it was more bother than it's worth. If for no other reason or the amount of time it takes to explain it's unique effects to players.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

There isn't quite anything in the standard nomenclature that does match the desired effects. The Trait has to defi9ne its' own rules and if I were GM I'd have deci8ded it was more bother than it's worth. If for no other reason or the amount of time it takes to explain it's unique effects to players.

I don't think it's difficult to explain to players - your character is dead, but as long as his body isn't destroyed, it will slowly regenerate and eventually he'll come back. This is very similar to Unkillable 2 (Mortal -20%), except you don't have the whole "Indestructible Skeleton" thing going for you.

Now, another consideration is the fact that the character is functionally getting Doesn't Breathe (Only While Dead -40%) [12] and Doesn't Eat/Drink (Only While Dead -40%) [6] for free. While getting these for free with Unkillable 2+ is probably alright (you're looking at a base cost of [100]), getting them for free with this trait is probably too much of a stretch, meaning characters should have to pay for these Advantages. Doesn't Eat/Drink is necessary (otherwise you'd probably need to have Maintenance or similar as a Temporary Disadvantage, as you'd be reliant on others to feed you), but Doesn't Breathe could be avoided - the corpse needs (and fouls) fresh air to regenerate, and will rapidly deteriorate without it*.

It's clear that I consider the drawback of dying (with the ability to potentially return) above -10xHP as being much greater than the general consensus, so I'll need to review my stance to see if I'm mistaken. I do thank everyone who has weighed in so far - you've given me a good deal to think on. I'm thinking the proper value is somewhere in the range of -20% to -50% - or the trait should have a base cost of [25] to [40].

*I actually intend to give the race in question Doesn't Breathe (Only While Dead -40%, Temporary Disadvantage: Total Unhealing -30%) [6], which will basically mean they are reliant on oxygen to regenerate.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Varyon

te without it*.

It's clear that I consider the drawback of dying (with the ability to potentially return) above -10xHP as being much greater than the general consensus, .

The general consensus can speak form itself but I don't consider the possessors of this Advantage to be "dead" in anything but a cosmetic sense.

Really dead people don't get better on their own, ever! They don't even have a "normal" healing rate.

You might come up with some sort of Temporary Disadvantage of "Helpless" or something while they are pseudo-dead. Look perhaps at the various Astral Projection builds in Powers. Those involve helpless bodies.

[Nereidalbel]

Requiring oxygen to regenerate while "dead" would best be done by putting Hindrance: Anoxic Conditions on your Unkillable 2.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The general consensus can speak form itself but I don't consider the possessors of this Advantage to be "dead" in anything but a cosmetic sense.

Really dead people don't get better on their own, ever! They don't even have a "normal" healing rate.

Do you consider the cut-off arm of a character with Regrowth to be severed only in a cosmetic sense? The same argument can be made there as you are making here.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

You might come up with some sort of Temporary Disadvantage of "Helpless" or something while they are pseudo-dead. Look perhaps at the various Astral Projection builds in Powers. Those involve helpless bodies.

Something like that would be useful, yes. Interestingly, all of the Projection Limitations that render the character incapable of actually affecting their environment (as is the case for a temporarily-dead character with my trait) actually has the Limitation set at -50%. As has been noted in this thread, however, for my trait the Limitation only comes into play after the character has already lost some functionality (the earliest it will happen is at -1xHP), so it may be appropriate to give a lesser reduction. Projection also notes the need for the body to be kept fed and oxygenated, so it certainly seems to be a good starting point, and an indication that my initial estimate wasn't completely off. Thanks for pointing me in its direction. I'm thinking -40% may be a more appropriate Limitation value.

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Requiring oxygen to regenerate while "dead" would best be done by putting Hindrance: Anoxic Conditions on your Unkillable 2.

That would work well for a trait that includes the effects of Doesn't Breathe (Only While Dead) for free, but I don't think that should be the case for my trait.

...

For the actual race in question, I think the Metatrait is going to be Unkillable 1 (Mortal -40%, Aftermath* -40%) [10] + Doesn't Breathe (Only While Dead -40%, Total Unhealing -30%) [6] + Doesn't Eat or Drink (Only While Dead -40%) [6], for a total cost of [22].

*This is actually -46.5%, allowing for some wiggle room on the Mortal Limitation, and consists of -2 to each of ST (-10%) and DX (-20%), Increased Consumption 2 (-10%), and the loss of Very Fast Regeneration (-6.5%), but not of the character's lower levels of Regeneration. It lasts for as long as the character was dead.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Do you consider the cut-off arm of a character with Regrowth to be severed only in a cosmetic sense? The same argument can be made there as you are making here.

.

Not by me. Regrowth is the power to regrow severed limbs. Unkillable (i.e "can't be killed")is the power to not be truly dead rather than to come back from the dead. That would be Resurrection which I think didn't make it into 4e.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Not by me. Regrowth is the power to regrow severed limbs. Unkillable (i.e "can't be killed")is the power to not be truly dead rather than to come back from the dead. That would be Resurrection which I think didn't make it into 4e.

Given that Unkillable includes coming back from the destruction of all of your flesh, "Resurrection" would be redundant.