Insubstantial and Invisible

[arnej]

In the section on Insubstantiality, there is this:

Affect Substantial: If you have any abilities that can affect the substantial world when you are insubstantial – including magic, psionics, or powers with the Affects Substantial enhancement (p. 102) – this advantage costs more. +100%.

Earlier in the same Advantage, it mentions that Insubstantiality does not make you Invisible, for that you need the Invisibility advantage.

So, if I wanted an Invisible, Insubstantial character, would I have to take the Affects Substantial +100% to Insubstantial? Does Invisibility could as an a ability that affects the substantial world?

[RyanW]

I would say no. Affects substantial would be required for attacks, telekinesis, etc. In fact, being invisible reduces your impact on the substantial world (you don't interact with photons (though you can still somehow see (who do invisible retinas work? (have I nested too many parentheses?))))

[arnej]

Originally Posted by RyanW

I would say no. Affects substantial would be required for attacks, telekinesis, etc. In fact, being invisible reduces your impact on the substantial world (you don't interact with photons (though you can still somehow see (who do invisible retinas work? (have I nested too many parentheses?))))

I was hoping so. I am interested in other thoughts, but that was my thinking.

Btw, love the .sig.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by arnej

In the section on Insubstantiality, there is this:

Affect Substantial: If you have any abilities that can affect the substantial world when you are insubstantial – including magic, psionics, or powers with the Affects Substantial enhancement (p. 102) – this advantage costs more. +100%.

Earlier in the same Advantage, it mentions that Insubstantiality does not make you Invisible, for that you need the Invisibility advantage.

So, if I wanted an Invisible, Insubstantial character, would I have to take the Affects Substantial +100% to Insubstantial? Does Invisibility could as an a ability that affects the substantial world?

Looking at some of the templates on B263 might help...

"Spirit" doesn't since its insubstantially DOES have the +100%, but the "Astral Entity" template below it does help.

AEs "cannot materialize, become visible, or use its supernatural powers in the physical world"

Their invisibiltiy (like that of spirits) is "Substantial Only" which B63 explains means you're INvisible to substantial creatures and visible to INsubstantial ones.

If you required the +100% for invisibility to affect substantial creatures (which AE lacks) this would mean that Astral Entities couldn't use both invis/insub at the same time, they'd either need to be substantial+invisible or insubstantial+visible.

Astral Entities can't do that though, since they are ALWAYS insubstantial... meaning their invisibility-to-substantial-guys could never work at all if it required the +100%

So in conclusion I think the AE template is basically the perfect argument for why invisibility would not need that enhancement.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Plane

Looking at some of the templates on B263 might help...

"Spirit" doesn't since its insubstantially DOES have the +100%, but the "Astral Entity" template below it does help.

AEs "cannot materialize, become visible, or use its supernatural powers in the physical world"

Their invisibiltiy (like that of spirits) is "Substantial Only" which B63 explains means you're INvisible to substantial creatures and visible to INsubstantial ones.

This is but one example, though maybe the only one in Basic but occurs often enough to be representative. I interpret it as your affecting yourself with Invisibility rather than blocking a sense as with Obscure.