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Old 02-29-2020, 12:54 AM   #1
WaterAndWindSpirit
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Default [UT] Integrated retractable bayonet

So, this is a question about bayonets and UT...

So, the rules for bayonets mentions that bayonets give a small penalty to Spear and Guns skill because they unbalance the gun.

Would a TL 9 gun designed from the ground up with an integrated Superfine Bayonet (the kind of high quality guns that's supposed to go to near superhuman operatives so they have all the bells and whistles possible to give them any edge they can use to survive because these operatives are rare and very useful in Intel gathering and sabotage), possibly retractable (though this part is negotiable) be able to not have this penalty? What would be the extra cost for that?

Thank!
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Old 02-29-2020, 01:07 AM   #2
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Default Re: [UT] Integrated retractable bayonet

There's two questions at work here.

1) Does a bayonet cause a penalty when using Spear skill (because the bayonet makes the gun unbalanced)? That's the wrong question for this issue. The gun's shooting body is making the bayonet unbalanced. No amount of rebalanced bayonet is really going to change that.

2) Does the bayonet cause a penalty to Guns skill? The problem here is that the mounted pointy bit is obscuring the line-up between the sights, barrel end, and target, so that you can't really aim properly to see what you are expecting to hit. I imagine if you have some kind of computerised targeting system that does not rely on the traditional eye-sights-barrel-tip line-up to aim (perhaps HUDS and twin shoulder-mounted cameras), then the bayonet would make that a non-issue. While the bayonet is retracted (or removed), there shouldn't be any penalty either, because it would not obscure the above-mentioned line-up.

Disclaimer: I have no experience of shooting guns, with or without a bayonet.
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Old 02-29-2020, 01:10 AM   #3
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Default Re: [UT] Integrated retractable bayonet

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Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
2) Does the bayonet cause a penalty to Guns skill? The problem here is that the mounted pointy bit is obscuring the line-up between the sights, barrel end, and target, so that you can't really aim properly to see what you are expecting to hit.
There is a further issue that the weight and inertia of the bayonet attached to the end of the barrel changes the harmonics with which the barrel resonates when the gun is fired, which changes the zero and can increase the group size.
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Old 02-29-2020, 03:34 AM   #4
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Default Re: [UT] Integrated retractable bayonet

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Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
There is a further issue that the weight and inertia of the bayonet attached to the end of the barrel changes the harmonics with which the barrel resonates when the gun is fired, which changes the zero and can increase the group size.
I seem to recall reading that the Russians used to zero their Mosin-Nagants with the bayonets fixed, just to confuse matters.

Certainly a Chinese-made SKS carbine with a built-in folding spear bayonet (like this one: https://www.gunsamerica.com/userimag...wm_3230030.jpg) I once had experienced a change in zero with the bayonet extended - using the factory zero it moved the zero onto the point of aim. My friend's carbine, with a serial number one different from mine was the reverse - fixing the bayonet moved the zero off the point of aim.

The generic -1 to skill is reasonable, though, rather than deciding just what every individual rifle (not model of rifle, but each and every single rifle) does. If this sort of detail seem warranted, one should probably also determine which brands of ammo and which loads a given gun 'likes' and 'dislikes', and possibly which batch. I had a 10/22 rifle (not a weapon known for great accuracy) that was quite reasonably accurate, as long as you used a few particular loads (expensive brands, all of them), and it was appalling with some others, including one really cheap brand that my father's bolt-action Ruger .22 was fine with.

Guns can be surprisingly fickle things.
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Old 02-29-2020, 05:46 AM   #5
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Default Re: [UT] Integrated retractable bayonet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
There is a further issue that the weight and inertia of the bayonet attached to the end of the barrel changes the harmonics with which the barrel resonates when the gun is fired, which changes the zero and can increase the group size.
From what I understand, this is the primary factor in bayonets causing a Guns penalty. A rifle designed from the ground up with an integrated bayonet shouldn't have this problem, but the bayonet would have to be extended at all times; retracting it would probably mess things up enough to justify the -1 to Guns again. Honestly, I'd be fine with even a normal rifle having no penalty, so long as it was zeroed with a bayonet attached (so now you're at -1 to Guns if it's not attached).

In a cinematic campaign (or perhaps just one that doesn't use gritty realism), I'd allow for a Perk, Bayonet Fighting, that lets you ignore the penalty - you can handle your weapon just fine regardless of if it has the bayonet attached/extended or not. Even in a gritty realism campaign, a weapon with a HUD link might work just fine as well, so long as it has some way to detect (or be told) that the bayonet is attached/extended (it adjusts the FPS-style crosshairs to the new zero).
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Old 02-29-2020, 07:23 AM   #6
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Default Re: [UT] Integrated retractable bayonet

The problem is that the bayonet doesn't just shift the zero (and may not do this is the rifle is designed such that the bayonet is not mounted on the barrel, but rather on the furniture), but also the barrel's harmonics and vibrations, and the weapon's balance. The last is a familiarity penalty at worst, but the change in barrel vibration can just plain make the rifle less accurate (-1 Acc probably). [Though, as I said above, some individual rifles might be the reverse, and like their bayonets.]

You could probably make a rifle that avoids this and has a bayonet by having a free-floating barrel and mounting the bayonet on the fore-end/forward grip, but the furniture would then have to be extra heavy to bear the stress, and the extra weight forward wouldn't help the weapon's balance, especially as a bayonet platform, so you'd need to add weight to the rear, making it even heavier, etc.

Easier to just mount a integral hinged bayonet on a conventional barrel and stock assembly like the SKS and some other rifles had, and only fix the thing when a need for stabbing seem immanent.

By the way, you want a reasonably long and robust rifle for bayonet work. Modern assault rifles and carbines are not well suited to it. Such a rifle should also have a good solid shoulder stock for bashing heads with.
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Old 02-29-2020, 11:13 AM   #7
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Default Re: [UT] Integrated retractable bayonet

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
By the way, you want a reasonably long and robust rifle for bayonet work. Modern assault rifles and carbines are not well suited to it. Such a rifle should also have a good solid shoulder stock for bashing heads with.
Also, there's the fact that permanently mounting the bayonet on the rifle means you lose about 98% of what modern soldiers actually find a bayonet useful for.
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Old 02-29-2020, 11:58 AM   #8
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Default Re: [UT] Integrated retractable bayonet

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Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
Also, there's the fact that permanently mounting the bayonet on the rifle means you lose about 98% of what modern soldiers actually find a bayonet useful for.
Integral bayonets tend to be of the rod/spike type and are not useful as a (large) knife.
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Old 02-29-2020, 12:34 PM   #9
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Default Re: [UT] Integrated retractable bayonet

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Originally Posted by copeab View Post
Integral bayonets tend to be of the rod/spike type and are not useful as a (large) knife.
True, but that means it's slightly more useful than a knife bayonet as a bayonet, and completely useless as a knife. A knife is basically a necessity (opening ration pouches is probably the primary use of the modern bayonet), and bayonet charges are rare enough that having a knife and a dedicated bayonet is considered dead weight.
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Old 03-03-2020, 10:47 AM   #10
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Default Re: [UT] Integrated retractable bayonet

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Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
True, but that means it's slightly more useful than a knife bayonet as a bayonet, and completely useless as a knife. A knife is basically a necessity (opening ration pouches is probably the primary use of the modern bayonet), and bayonet charges are rare enough that having a knife and a dedicated bayonet is considered dead weight.
If you're facing critters that are numerous and tend to rush to melee range (like a swarm of Zerglings from Scarcraft), a dedicated efficient quick melee option is an attractive proposition. And it doesn't get quicker than the gun you are already holding. Plus efficient spear formations can have a large impact against similar melee charges.
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