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Old 07-23-2012, 05:54 AM   #11
Figleaf23
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Default Re: Insubstantiality and affects substantial

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5.3.3. If I have the Partial Enhancement and an Innate Attack that requires only my fist to be substantial to work, do I need the Affect Substantial Enhancement?

Yes. Partial strictly lets you use natural body parts in mundane ways. It does not let you activate special abilities on those body parts as a way to short-circuit the need for Affect Substantial. The Innate Attack being "on" your fist is a special effect – it could just as easily be a zero-range mental blast.
That's problematic too, of course. Where an IA emerges from may be a 'special effect' in terms of building a character, but it becomes a fixed, play relevant, quality in game. If, for example, a GM can say a character build with flame-throwing hands cannot shoot his power because his hands are tied behind his back, then it seems inconsistent to then rule the location of the power to be meaningless when it could be to the characters' benefit.
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Old 07-23-2012, 06:42 AM   #12
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Default Re: Insubstantiality and affects substantial

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Originally Posted by Figleaf23 View Post
The text for and the way Insubstantiality works is quite problematic. It says in the body of the description that your magic and psi does affect the substantial world, but then you go down to the enhancements and only there does it say you need Affects Substantial if your magic and psi will affect the substantial world. So the GM has to choose which passage actually applies.
Both apply. If you have these powers and can affects the substantial world with them, you need Affects Substantial and they work at -3 (unless you give them "affects substantial" as well).

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And then, what does it do? The text says only that you need it if you have abilities that can affect the substantial world, but does it IN ITSELF allow you to affect the substantial world? Unclear.
With your magic and psionics, yes. With your body and physical powers that lack "affects substantial?" No.

Affects Substantial doesn't really change your power. It's just an added point tax that gets slapped on if you can affect substantials while insubstantial because it vastly changes the balance of the trait when you can do these things.

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And then just below that, we see Partial Change, listed separately, with no clarification about how/whether it needs to be coupled with Affects Substantial.
It doesn't.

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And then there is the whole breathing conunundrum.
I'd say that's pretty clear. You need to breathe as normal when insubstantial.
Take Ghost Air if you don't, but still breathe some sort of astral air and can be strangulated by other astral beings.
Take Doesn't Breathe with Oxygen Absorption if you breathe by absorbing oxygen directly as you phase through it without needing to filter it through the lungs or regular Doesn't Breathe if you don't breathe at all.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:08 AM   #13
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Default Re: Insubstantiality and affects substantial

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Originally Posted by Figleaf23 View Post
That's problematic too, of course. Where an IA emerges from may be a 'special effect' in terms of building a character, but it becomes a fixed, play relevant, quality in game. If, for example, a GM can say a character build with flame-throwing hands cannot shoot his power because his hands are tied behind his back, then it seems inconsistent to then rule the location of the power to be meaningless when it could be to the characters' benefit.
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Affects Substantial doesn't really change your power. It's just an added point tax that gets slapped on if you can affect substantials while insubstantial because it vastly changes the balance of the trait when you can do these things.
EXACTLY this. Being an untouchable unstoppable killing machine should be expensive.



I added a page on Insubstantial and Affects Substantial and Partial Change to my groups wiki last week, as a response to another thread on the forum.
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Old 07-23-2012, 02:19 PM   #14
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Default Re: Insubstantiality and affects substantial

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Originally Posted by Figleaf23 View Post
And then, what does it do? The text says only that you need it if you have abilities that can affect the substantial world, but does it IN ITSELF allow you to affect the substantial world? .
No. What I wonder is whether people's minds count as being part of the substantial world.
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Old 07-23-2012, 02:27 PM   #15
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Default Re: Insubstantiality and affects substantial

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
No. What I wonder is whether people's minds count as being part of the substantial world.
"Mind" is a substantial aspected trait, not an insubstantial aspected trait. If you wish to affect a target's mind while insubstantial, you need the Affect Substantial modifier on Insubstantial and you need to be using magic (which suffers a -3 penalty), psionics (which suffers a -3 penalty) or an advantage (that may be magic or psionic or whatever) that also has the Affect Substantial modifier (which doesn't suffer the -3 penalty).

Assuming the target is substantial, of course. If the target is insubstantial and you are insubstantial, then it works without that penalty and without the requirement for Affect Substantial.

The GM is more than welcome to rule otherwise, as always; but the above is RAW.
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:24 PM   #16
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Default Re: Insubstantiality and affects substantial

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Originally Posted by B9anders View Post
Nope. From the FAQ
It says you can poke. If Partial Change is not sufficient in itself to carry things without Carry Objects, why would it necessarily be sufficient in itself to damage things without Affects Substantial? Punching and choking with impunity is too cheap without it.
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:31 PM   #17
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Default Re: Insubstantiality and affects substantial

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Originally Posted by Figleaf23 View Post
That's problematic too, of course. Where an IA emerges from may be a 'special effect' in terms of building a character, but it becomes a fixed, play relevant, quality in game. If, for example, a GM can say a character build with flame-throwing hands cannot shoot his power because his hands are tied behind his back, then it seems inconsistent to then rule the location of the power to be meaningless when it could be to the characters' benefit.
It's relevant at a given moment, but it's not usually advantageous or disadvantageous overall: the human torch can stick his arm up into an intricate plot device and use his finger to weld two parts together he can feel but not see, while a pyrokinetic guy with LOS can't fit his head in the same place. The player accepts some variation in utility when they pick the special effect or the template or the character as a whole.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:51 AM   #18
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Default Re: Insubstantiality and affects substantial

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Originally Posted by jeff_wilson View Post
It says you can poke. If Partial Change is not sufficient in itself to carry things without Carry Objects, why would it necessarily be sufficient in itself to damage things without Affects Substantial? Punching and choking with impunity is too cheap without it.
'poke' obviously means punch here. It's cheaper because unlike attacks that require "affects substantial" going Partial leaves you vulnerable to counterattacks on the bodyparts used.

This is also why there is a price difference between the two Partial enhancements. If you simply want to be able to expose your hands for some fisticuffs, it's +20%. If you want to be able to fire a gun with the same hand, it rises to +100%. Neither requires "Affects substantial."

"Affects Substantial" is a tax on insubstantiality when you have abilities that affect substantials while you are wholly insubstantial and out of reach.

"Partial" is being able to turn part of your body physical (and vulnerable) to grab and punch stuff. It has an added +80% tax if you want to be able to hold stuff that remains physical (and thus, be able to shoot a gun with just the hand).

The cheap version of Partial is much cheaper than Affects Substantial because it's a lot less powerful - you want to use it for attacks you have to be in melee range and can only use your own body for attacks - leaving you very vulnerable in comparison. The pricier version isn't as vulnerable since you can pick up stuff like guns to attack at range whilst remaining largely insubstantial. Still vulnerable, unlike the guy who attacks through "Affects substantial" abilities, but much less so and he gains some additional utility, so the price comes out the same as the guy who has "affects substantial."

But really, you should be able to get this from simply reading the FAQ as it is intended. Kromm gives the counter-examples that you need Affects substantial only for abilities like deathtouch added on top of your strike and further below argues that if you have an ability you need "affects substantial" since " Partial strictly lets you use natural body parts in mundane ways" - ie, for punching and stuff.
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:19 PM   #19
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Default Re: Insubstantiality and affects substantial

Something to add that I forgot to say. Does it make it easier if the weapons are made of water or is it the same thing (affects substantial with cosmic and all that)?
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:41 PM   #20
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Default Re: Insubstantiality and affects substantial

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Originally Posted by Finalsora811 View Post
Something to add that I forgot to say. Does it make it easier if the weapons are made of water or is it the same thing (affects substantial with cosmic and all that)?
Same thing. The fluff isn't relevant, only the crunch, when discussing what the crunch does.

Fluff suggests crunch but doesn't dictate it.

"I spray them with a jet of chlorine trifluoride" vs "I spray them with a jet of water", assuming the same underlying advantage, gives the same mechanical result regardless of what chlorine trifluoride does. (Go look it up. Its' a lovely, lovely, thing. Even the Nazi wouldn't touch it. Too scary for them.)
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