Some Answers: Insubstantiality & Permeation

[Der Wanderer]

With the kind accordance i post here some answers I got from Dr. Kromm...

@Insubstantiality
If I have the Partial Enhancement, do I also need the Affect Substantial Enhancement?
You don't *have* to take it. If all you want to do is use your hands to poke things (and, with Can Carry Objects, carry things), Partial will do all on its own. If you want to use other abilities in the material world -- like use your hand to Deathtouch people -- then you also need Affect Substantial.

Do I need Affects Substantial, if my Innate Attack/Magic only works while I'm substantial?
If it affects the material world, then you need Affect Substantial. If it only affects the insubstantial world, then you do not.

If I have the Partial Enhancement and an Innate Attack* that requires only my fist to be substantial to work, do I need the Affect Substantial Enhancement?
Yes. Partial strictly lets you use natural body parts in mundane ways. It does not let you activate special abilities on those body parts as a way to short-circuit the need for Affect Substantial. The Innate Attack being "on" your fist is a special effect -- it could just as easily be a zero-range mental blast.

If I have Illusionary Form, can I also punch for 1/2 damage, since I take half damage from physical attacks?
No. You're limited exactly as if you had Shadow Form, which means you cannot make purely physical attacks.

Is damage halfed before or after I subtract DR from the damage (After would mean also DR is halfed)?
You take half *damage.* Damage is the roll before DR. "Half injury" would be after DR.

Should I also apply the Illusionary Form limitation to the Partial and the Affect Substantial Enhancements?
That depends on what you want to do. If you want your body to be partly solid and also partly able to affect the material world, then combine Illusory Form with Partial. If you want to be a magical illusion that can be damaged by attacks but that can also wield magical powers in the material world, then combine Affect Substantial with Illusory Form. Combine all three if you can affect the material world with your body *and* special powers, and the material world can somewhat affect you.


@Permeation
What does Permeate (everything) cost?
You'll have to wait for POWERS for that, but I'll add that it's easy to figure out from the progression in the BASIC SET.
(That most likely means 80 CPs)

If I have Permeate (Metal) can I punch/slash (with the can carry equipment enhancement) through metal armour (does metal armour protect from my attacks)?
Metal armor works just fine against your attacks, for the same reason that attacks with metal work just fine against you: you can walk bodily through a material, but you have no immunity at all to sudden, violent ecounters with that material.

Or would I need an additional enhancement for the effect described in previous question, such as reduced time?
You cannot use Permeation to bypass DR at all. For that, buy a suitable Innate Attack and add Cosmic, +300%. You can link it to Permeation, if you like.

If I have Permeate (Metal) can I still hit someone with Body of Metal?
Yes. It's important to understand that Permeation *doesn't* mean "This material and my body can't interact at all." It means nothing more than "I can walk (not reach, not attack) through this material."

Finetuning: If I have Permeate (Flesh), can I decide that I can grab a foes heart by permeating the surrounding tissue but not the heart? Can I use permeate (Flesh) to grab a broken bone, aligne and fix it (by deciding that I can permeate all but this bone)?
No and no. Buy those abilities separately as Innate Attack and Healing with suitable modifiers.

If the answer to the previous question was no: Could I do it by adding the Selective "Area" Enhancement? Or would I need another Enhancement (If yes which one - or will that be in powers)?
See above. It has nothing to do with Permeation. It's a separate set of abilities.

[transmetahuman]

Originally Posted by Der Wanderer

With the kind accordance i post here some answers I got from Dr. Kromm...

@Insubstantiality
B]Do I need Affects Substantial, if my Innate Attack/Magic only works while I'm substantial? [/B]
If it affects the material world, then you need Affect Substantial. If it only affects the insubstantial world, then you do not.

This seems like a typo or a misunderstanding. Why would you need Affects Substantial on an ability that only works while you're substantial? I'm going to assume Kromm meant "only while insubstantial...

I don't know if this has been clarified elsewhere: If you are a mage or a psi, you can affect the material world at -3 to skill. Do you need to take either the Affect Substantial enhancement (+100% on Insubstantiality) or the Affects Substantial Enhancement (+40% on the spell skills or psi advantages) in order to do this, or is it completely free? If free, does that apply to physical psi like Telekinesis?

Edit: Really good to hear that Permeation (All) will be official.

[Der Wanderer]

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

This seems like a typo or a misunderstanding. Why would you need Affects Substantial on an ability that only works while you're substantial? I'm going to assume Kromm meant "only while insubstantial...

I was surprised too. But I guess if you have any powers that affect the substantial world you need to pay for the enhancement...

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

I don't know if this has been clarified elsewhere: If you are a mage or a psi, you can affect the material world at -3 to skill. Do you need to take either the Affect Substantial enhancement (+100% on Insubstantiality) or the Affects Substantial Enhancement (+40% on the spell skills or psi advantages) in order to do this, or is it completely free? If free, does that apply to physical psi like Telekinesis?

You definitively need Affect Substantial Enhancement on Insubstantiality... You will also need it on your Psi Powers that have a substanital representation (Telekiniesis; Innate Attack (Wall), also Energy Attacks since Insubstantial beings are immune to those, but not on those who can hurt both by default like Mind Reading) for the same reason you dont need it on Magery (since this power by default can affect both insubstantial and substantial) but not all of the spells (e.g. a fireball does not harm an insubstantial beeing)

[transmetahuman]

Originally Posted by Der Wanderer

I was surprised too. But I guess if you have any powers that affect the substantial world you need to pay for the enhancement...

But that's everything, unless you're a spirit or otherwise "always on". You have ST, or acid-secreting flesh, or a rhino horn. It affects the material world while you're substantial; it doesn't when you're not. Why would you need an enhancement for that? It should be the default.

Originally Posted by Der Wanderer

You definitively need Affect Substantial Enhancement on Insubstantiality... You will also need it on your Psi Powers that have a substanital representation (Telekiniesis; Innate Attack (Wall), also Energy Attacks since Insubstantial beings are immune to those, but not on those who can hurt both by default like Mind Reading) for the same reason you dont need it on Magery (since this power by default can affect both insubstantial and substantial) but not all of the spells (e.g. a fireball does not harm an insubstantial beeing)

So, if I understand correctly, what you are saying is:

1) Every mage needs Affect Substantial (+100%) on his Insubstantiality, but not the +40% enhancement on magery or spell skills. He can cast any spell that doesn't have a material manifestation, at -3 to skill, even if it has a physical effect, like Rooted Feet or Steal Youth. His spells with a material manifestation (basically just missile spells and a few others) only affect the insubstantial world he's in.

2) Every psi needs the +100% enhancement to Insubstantiality, whether or not his powers have a material manifestation. He doesn't need the +40% AS on his Telepathy, ESP, or AntiPsi powers. He *does* need it on his Psychokinesis and Teleportation powers, except the ones that only affect himself. I'm still not sure about Psychic Healing; it depends on whether the powers could affect a subject who was himself insubstantial. There's also some question about PK or TP that directly affects the body (like a "squeezing his heart" Innate Attack, or Affliction (Warp), since by the book an insubstantial character might be vulnerable to those, too (p. B62, last line).

That seems to be what you're saying - please correct me if I'm wrong. Is this your interpretation, or are there threads somewhere where Kromm has explained this? If so, can you possibly give me the link or a thread title? I've done a search but haven't found anything.

[transmetahuman]

I re-read the description of the +40% Affects Substantial enhancement. It flatly tells you not to use it for magical or psi abilities, period. And the description of default Insubstantiality likewise allows all psi abilities and magical spells (which makes more sense than "any magical abilities").

If later rulings from on high have changed that, it should be in the FAQ and/or errata. For one thing, almost anything could be a "magical" ability; the +40% AS should be reworded if they only mean spells. And a lot of what Kromm is quoted on up there in the thread seems to contradict the rules as written. I'd just really like some official clarification. Of course, it could all be coming in Powers. Has any GURPS book ever been so eagerly awaited?

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

1) Every mage needs Affect Substantial (+100%) on his Insubstantiality, but not the +40% enhancement on magery or spell skills. He can cast any spell that doesn't have a material manifestation, at -3 to skill, even if it has a physical effect, like Rooted Feet or Steal Youth. His spells with a material manifestation (basically just missile spells and a few others) only affect the insubstantial world he's in.
2) Every psi needs the +100% enhancement to Insubstantiality, whether or not his powers have a material manifestation. He doesn't need the +40% AS on his Telepathy, ESP, or AntiPsi powers. He *does* need it on his Psychokinesis and Teleportation powers, except the ones that only affect himself. I'm still not sure about Psychic Healing; it depends on whether the powers could affect a subject who was himself insubstantial. There's also some question about PK or TP that directly affects the body (like a "squeezing his heart" Innate Attack, or Affliction (Warp), since by the book an insubstantial character might be vulnerable to those, too (p. B62, last line).

Not speaking for DW, but I think that this interpretation is correct.

And the description of default Insubstantiality likewise allows all psi abilities and magical spells (which makes more sense than "any magical abilities").
If later rulings from on high have changed that, it should be in the FAQ and/or errata. For one thing, almost anything could be a "magical" ability; the +40% AS should be reworded if they only mean spells.

I guess that the 'magical abilities' bit is to cover the possibility of defining certain advantages as magical. I seem to recall a "Magical" limitation, analagous to the psionic limitations listed for the traditional psychic powers, being discussed before. Anyone have a link for that?

[Der Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

I seem to recall a "Magical" limitation, analagous to the psionic limitations listed for the traditional psychic powers, being discussed before. Anyone have a link for that?

Yep, IIRC then its even in Basic at the beginning of the advantages... its -10% (-5% for mana dependency and -5% because it can be blocked like magic spells)

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

1) Every mage needs Affect Substantial (+100%) on his Insubstantiality, but not the +40% enhancement on magery or spell skills. He can cast any spell that doesn't have a material manifestation, at -3 to skill, even if it has a physical effect, like Rooted Feet or Steal Youth. His spells with a material manifestation (basically just missile spells and a few others, that would add another power to the insubstantial advantage Unlimited Temperature Tolerance?) only affect the insubstantial world he's in.

2) Every psi needs the +100% enhancement to Insubstantiality, whether or not his powers have a material manifestation. He doesn't need the +40% AS on his Telepathy, ESP, or AntiPsi powers. He *does* need it on his Psychokinesis and Teleportation powers, except the ones that only affect himself. I'm still not sure about Psychic Healing; it depends on whether the powers could affect a subject who was himself insubstantial. There's also some question about PK or TP that directly affects the body (like a "squeezing his heart" Innate Attack, or Affliction (Warp), since by the book an insubstantial character might be vulnerable to those, too (p. B62, last line).

Yes thats how I understood it... except Psychokinetic aspects like Temperature Control, since they by default affect both worlds (there is no reason why a insubstantial beeing should not be freezing, though the rules are a little bit shady since a insubstantial beeing does not take damage from energy attacks)

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

I re-read the description of the +40% Affects Substantial enhancement. It flatly tells you not to use it for magical or psi abilities, period. And the description of default Insubstantiality likewise allows all psi abilities and magical spells (which makes more sense than "any magical abilities").

I'm not sure on that but I would request the Affect Substantial Enhancement on Affliction and Innate Attacks independent whether they are Psi / Magic or anything else. Or else they can only target insubstantial beeings...

[NorthSaber]

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

I re-read the description of the +40% Affects Substantial enhancement. It flatly tells you not to use it for magical or psi abilities, period. And the description of default Insubstantiality likewise allows all psi abilities and magical spells (which makes more sense than "any magical abilities").

AFAICT, psi abilities and magical *spells* already have a built-in Affects Substantial - and if you have any such abilities that affect anything in the physical world, you have to pay more for your Insubstantiality. (The advantage is simply more advantageous to you than to those without such abilities.) What I'd like to see is a mention somewhere, especially for the psi abilities, that this enhancement is already included - for example in powers, under the power modifiers. Most magical powers should also include this (but they don't, so magical powers do not work without Affects Substantial).

Terror has also been the object of some discussion related to Insubstantiality, but based on Kromm's comments above, it seems even Terror would require Affects Substantial from both Insubstantiality and Terror itself. Being able to be seen or heard is equivalent to having Partial and being able to touch things in the physical world, and so having Terror activated by being seen or heard is equivalent to having Partial and using it to deliver Death Touch.

***EDIT: If this is true, then it seems the Ghost template from Fantasy would need errata to reflect the higher cost of Insubtantiality built in to the Unmanifested Spirit meta-trait as well as adding Affects Substantial to Terror. If not, I'd like an explanation as to which offensive abilities do *not* require Affects Substantial (sense-based?).***

It seems Insubstantiality is quite unforgiving - any attack or offensive ability that affects the physical world would seem to require Affects Substantial, and I guess this is to act as a safeguard to make "invulnerable" opponents rare. Even an insubstantial ghost with Terror would be practically invincible and very harmful to the average person or even adventurer in a fantasy campaign.

As for paying for an attack that only works on the physical world when you are also substantial: I can see a problem with cases where you turn substantial to deliver the attack, and then turn back insubstantial for safety... But consider a character with normal, switchable Insubstantiality, that turns solid and punches an opponent. Being able to do that would seem to require the +100% enhancement on Insubstantiality as well, according to the reasoning above. So, in other words, if you are capable of any kind of attack, you *have* to pay the extra +100%, unless you are always insubstantial?

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by NorthSaber

As for paying for an attack that only works on the physical world when you are also substantial: I can see a problem with cases where you turn substantial to deliver the attack, and then turn back insubstantial for safety... But consider a character with normal, switchable Insubstantiality, that turns solid and punches an opponent. Being able to do that would seem to require the +100% enhancement on Insubstantiality as well, according to the reasoning above. So, in other words, if you are capable of any kind of attack, you *have* to pay the extra +100%, unless you are always insubstantial?

I'm not sure which post you are referring to, or if you mean Kromm's quoted reply... reading this thread two years later is a little confusing :? A character who has to turn solid to attack (by any means) another is no longer Insubstantial, and so does not need AffSub because of that attack. The only way to get around this is if you define an attack as happening in a brief instant of solidity which does not allow enemies to take advantage of your sudden vulnerability. That would just be a special effect of normal Insub, and would require the AI enhancement.