[Social Engineering] Charisma treated inconsistently with BIO/Basic

[pawsplay]

Figleaf23, we're not going to recreate Socrates' method of rhetoric here on the forums. Please stick to the matter at hand so that this whole discussion does not get shut down.

Originally Posted by Langy

In that case, this section of SE is poorly written, as it is not at all clear that that's what you meant. I don't think you should have used 'See' and 'Hear' at all, or mentioned sense channels, or any of that - they just confuse the issue, as evidenced by this entire thread. Mention just the actual requirements - the ability to convey information, and the fact that they perceive the fact that the other person is personally present. Period. Full-stop.

The vast majority of SE is great stuff, so don't take this the wrong way. Love the book. This bit's just a tad unclear.

I think I basically agree with Langy. I accept that the Basic Rules says what it does, and that's Charisma. I do not accept that what SE says flows from the Basic Rules, and indeed, seems to contradict it.

It is not necessary for someone to be deaf, mute, and blind to provided a difficult example, it is only necessary for them to be one of those things. If that is the approach taken in SE, my enthusiasm is definitely dampened.

With my background in psychology, I don't think it's because I have a misunderstanding of how real-world charisma works. As I have played GURPS since first edition, I don't think it's because I am unfamiliar with how Charisma works, or how it has evolved over the editions. It may well be that SE was written for a particular audience, I am not the audience, and these rules need not impact how the core game is played. However, at one time, I did have interest in the product, particularly as it intersects my real world interests, and what I am hearing is very questionable.

[PK]

At this point, things have turned from a discussion about Charisma into everyone arguing about the proper way to argue. (Admittedly, that's almost on topic for Social Engineering in general, but not for this thread.) Also, no one has said anything new for pages and pages -- it's at the point where everyone is just repeating themselves.

These are two very good reasons to close a thread. (And to realize that I may have been wrong in thinking that it was worth reopening to begin with.) If anyone wants to experience the virtual joy of continuing to debate, just re-read the last 20-30 messages a few times, in a loop, because I'm sure that's what the thread would look like were it to remain open.

EDIT: (And for anyone coming to this thread late and worrying about Charisma, let me just link to Bill's recent post on the matter that clears it up. No, the rule clarifications in Social Engineering don't prevent deaf people from having and using Charisma, or any such craziness. They just expand on what's already stated in the Basic Set.)