Balancing HP

[AlexanderHowl]

One of the assumptions concerning HP is that it relates to the weight of an object (+/- 30%). In the case of living objects, HP averages 2 × (cube root of weight). In the case of Unliving objects, HP averages 4 × (cube root of weight). In the case of Homogenous or Diffuse objects, HP averages 8 × (cube root of weight).

For example, let us take a 125 lbs object. A living object would have HP 10, a Unliving object HP 20, and a Homogenous or Diffuse object HP 40. This suggests that many characters may be too heavy for their HP.

I would suggest that following rules changes that would reflect changes brought by Unliving, Homogenous, and Diffuse. First, characters with Unliving must have HP within 4 × (cube root of weight) +/-30%. Second, characters with Homogenous or Diffuse must have HP within 8 × (cube root of weight) +/- 30%. What do you think?

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

One of the assumptions concerning HP is that it relates to the weight of an object (+/- 30%). In the case of living objects, HP averages 2 × (cube root of weight). In the case of Unliving objects, HP averages 4 × (cube root of weight). In the case of Homogenous or Diffuse objects, HP averages 8 × (cube root of weight).

For example, let us take a 125 lbs object. A living object would have HP 10, a Unliving object HP 20, and a Homogenous or Diffuse object HP 40. This suggests that many characters may be too heavy for their HP.

I would suggest that following rules changes that would reflect changes brought by Unliving, Homogenous, and Diffuse. First, characters with Unliving must have HP within 4 × (cube root of weight) +/-30%. Second, characters with Homogenous or Diffuse must have HP within 8 × (cube root of weight) +/- 30%. What do you think?

I don't think most Unliving, Homogenous and Diffuse characters stand in need of more HP, so I would suggest reversing your formula, giving weight based on HP.

Your formulas, reversed to give weight based on HP would require an unliving character to weigh of (HP/4)^3 lbs. +120%/-35% and Homogenous or Diffuse characters to weigh (HP/8)^3 lbs. +120%/-35%.

Note: ^3 is equivalent to cubed.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Your formulas, reversed to give weight based on HP would require an unliving character to weigh of (HP/4)^3 lbs. +120%/-35% and Homogenous or Diffuse characters to weigh (HP/8)^3 lbs. +120%/-35%.

Let's see. For HP 10, the formula gives a predicted weight of 15.6 lbs. for Unliving, and a range from 10.2 to 34.3. For HP 11, the predicted weight is 20.8, and the range is from 13.6 to 45.7. For HP 12, it's 27, and 17.6-59.4. That seems like a lot of overlap.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

I don't think most Unliving, Homogenous and Diffuse characters stand in need of more HP, .

The formulas may be useful for determinations about chance found "objects" but should not be applied to _characters_.

For example, consider an aveage man turned into a zombie (a "real" Undead one rather than the diseased but actually still living types). Do his HP double and thus make his arms twice as hard to hack off? If he's an old zombie they should probably be easier to hack off as the flesh decays and the bones grow brittle.

Even the rather ad-hoc IT:Unliving might be double-dipping compared to the unarguable effects of IT:No Vitals, No Blood and what is (almost but not quite) No Neck. Zombies should be immune to Choke Hold (either blood or breath type) and a Neck Snap would be mostly a humerous effect. You can decapitate one but it doesn't always stop the shambling.

Certainly bullets and arrows aren't good ways to stop a zombie but they aren't that good on living beings in terms of immediate effects without vitals hits and if you can't wait for them to bleed out....

So no, becoming heavier or having their hP doubled or whatever are not really on target ways of dealing with _characters_ with unrealistic abilities.

[AlexanderHowl]

A human becoming a zombie does not become heavier, but they should be tougher beyond the bonus provided by Unliving because they are the same weight. In the case of a zombie though, a doubling of HP would be balanced by Fragile (Unnatural).

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

A human becoming a zombie does not become heavier, but they should be tougher beyond the bonus provided by Unliving because they are the same weight. In the case of a zombie though, a doubling of HP would be balanced by Fragile (Unnatural).

Unliving, Homogeneous and Diffuse should be taking some of their HP with Massless +0%.

[AlexanderHowl]

Why? It is their mass that provides their HP. Unliving objects have twice as much HP per weight as normal objects while Homogeneous and Diffuse objects have four times as much HP per weight as normal objects.

[NineDaysDead]

Old thread:

Originally Posted by David L Pulver

According to GURPS Magic, Zombies have average HP 14. How that was determined I don't know. Could be based on the reduced weight and rot. The point is that for characters you can assign whatever HP you want. The 2x HP for unliving is a rule of thumb for inanimate objects, and merely a guideline for for racial templates, especially for characters.

As for dismemberment and Unliving: basically, I didn't think that part of the rule through. Kromm has already suggested one fix for dismemberment to ensure that bullets don't blow limbs off with abandon.

It might be quite logical to rule that Unliving entities only require 1x damage to sever limbs and that Homogenous can lose limbs at 1/2 damage. But that would add a fair bit of complexity, and it's really only applicable for the special case of zombies and skeletons - one can argue that most machine or homogenous limbs are indeed more solidly fixed than flesh. So you can also get around it by saying that, hey, zombies are magical and tougher. Or just assign them fewer HPs to start with on the "they're already rotten" theory.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Why? It is their mass that provides their HP. Unliving objects have twice as much HP per weight as normal objects while Homogeneous and Diffuse objects have four times as much HP per weight as normal objects.

Three 150lb beings one living, one Unliving and one Homogeneous all have the same mass, so should be treated the same for things like knockback, falls, and slams etc. However they all have different HP. Living being just takes HP 10, the others take HP 10, and extra HP with the Massless modifier.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

<snip> This suggests that many characters may be too heavy for their HP.


<snip> First, characters with Unliving must have HP within 4 × (cube root of weight) +/-30%. Second, characters with Homogenous or Diffuse must have HP within 8 × (cube root of weight) +/- 30%. What do you think?

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The formulas may be useful for determinations about chance found "objects" but should not be applied to _characters_.

For example, consider an aveage man turned into a zombie (a "real" Undead one rather than the diseased but actually still living types). Do his HP double and thus make his arms twice as hard to hack off? If he's an old zombie they should probably be easier to hack off as the flesh decays and the bones grow brittle.

Even the rather ad-hoc IT:Unliving might be double-dipping compared to the unarguable effects of IT:No Vitals, No Blood and what is (almost but not quite) No Neck. Zombies should be immune to Choke Hold (either blood or breath type) and a Neck Snap would be mostly a humerous effect. You can decapitate one but it doesn't always stop the shambling.

Certainly bullets and arrows aren't good ways to stop a zombie but they aren't that good on living beings in terms of immediate effects without vitals hits and if you can't wait for them to bleed out....

So no, becoming heavier or having their hP doubled or whatever are not really on target ways of dealing with _characters_ with unrealistic abilities.

I think you're agreeing with me about weight and HP. The OP has offered his formulas specifically to apply to characters.