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Old 01-17-2012, 11:25 AM   #31
RobKamm
 
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Default Re: [DF] Big Bad Wolf

Don't forget that parrying a large wolf is a risky proposition: you have to figure out if your weapon breaks. A wolf in this size range is going to have a hefty ST stat, enough that even the 1/10 ST for biting may force a weapon break roll on lighter weapons. Forget about parrying a slam -- a two-handed sword is going to risk a roll trying to stop even a ST 21 wolf. Stronger wolves increase that risk.

For that matter, you cannot parry an attack that weighs (or has ST for unarmed attacks) more than your BL. A ST 14 knight with a one-handed weapon has to find another option if a ST 40 beastie charges him.
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Old 01-17-2012, 11:32 AM   #32
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Default Re: [DF] Big Bad Wolf

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Originally Posted by RobKamm View Post
Don't forget that parrying a large wolf is a risky proposition: you have to figure out if your weapon breaks. A wolf in this size range is going to have a hefty ST stat, enough that even the 1/10 ST for biting may force a weapon break roll on lighter weapons. Forget about parrying a slam -- a two-handed sword is going to risk a roll trying to stop even a ST 21 wolf. Stronger wolves increase that risk.
There's an argument that the "unarmed attack weight" might be waaay too generous for the armed guy (and/or punishing to the unarmed guy) at extreme ends, but you shouldn't be noticing much of this effect in the ST 20-40 range.

( I like to use BL/20 instead of ST/10 - the usual argument against this one is that folks don't like to look up BL mid fight; my usual response is "Why didn't you write BL down in the first place?" but I really do understand the objection ;) For folks that don't scribble it down, I dunno what a good suggestion is. )
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Old 01-17-2012, 11:39 AM   #33
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Default Re: [DF] Big Bad Wolf

As far as "unarmed attackers are hosed vs. weapon parries" go, two things:

1. As has been belabored (at this point), Strikers count as weapons and not as body parts. All the scariest monsters ought to have Strikers. It's a simple matter to proclaim "All monsters with horns, claws, etc. have Strikers!" and ignore the rules for damaging unarmed attackers with parries. This lets heroes continue to hack off zombie arms and tentacles, of course.

2. Nothing in DF says you get to ignore the box on p. B378. That's considered a basic rule, and pp. 26-27 of DF 1 expressly call out weapon breakage. The upshot is that a paw or bite weighs ST/10 lbs., while a pounce or charge weighs ST lbs. Thus, a charging karkadann with ST 20 can destroy parrying weapons (even a very fine broadsword has 50/50 odds of just snapping off).

On the other hand, arguably the biting and clawing monsters aren't the ones that seriously scare heroes. Dragons breathe fire, mindwarpers shoot psionic bolts, liches cast spells, and even lesser creatures might launch spikes, breathe frost, etc. And anything with hands ought to have weapons.
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Old 01-17-2012, 11:42 AM   #34
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Default Re: [DF] Big Bad Wolf

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I like to use BL/2 instead of ST/10
I might go with BL/20 instead of ST/10 (but BL/2 instead of ST for slams, etc.) to keep things honest at the human scale, but the basic idea is a good one.
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Old 01-17-2012, 11:42 AM   #35
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Default Re: [DF] Big Bad Wolf

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1. As has been belabored (at this point), Strikers count as weapons and not as body parts. All the scariest monsters ought to have Strikers. It's a simple matter to proclaim "All monsters with horns, claws, etc. have Strikers!" and ignore the rules for damaging unarmed attackers with parries. This lets heroes continue to hack off zombie arms and tentacles, of course.
mlangsdorf went with this solution in his game. It seemed to be working out well, and still allows you to Wait to stick your sword/spear in the roof of the dragon's mouth when it comes for you :)

I still like a half-way point where "normal" animals aren't exempt from special measures.
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Old 01-17-2012, 12:06 PM   #36
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Default Re: [DF] Big Bad Wolf

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
As far as "unarmed attackers are hosed vs. weapon parries" go, two things:

1. As has been belabored (at this point), Strikers count as weapons and not as body parts. All the scariest monsters ought to have Strikers. It's a simple matter to proclaim "All monsters with horns, claws, etc. have Strikers!" and ignore the rules for damaging unarmed attackers with parries. This lets heroes continue to hack off zombie arms and tentacles, of course.

2. Nothing in DF says you get to ignore the box on p. B378. That's considered a basic rule, and pp. 26-27 of DF 1 expressly call out weapon breakage. The upshot is that a paw or bite weighs ST/10 lbs., while a pounce or charge weighs ST lbs. Thus, a charging karkadann with ST 20 can destroy parrying weapons (even a very fine broadsword has 50/50 odds of just snapping off).

On the other hand, arguably the biting and clawing monsters aren't the ones that seriously scare heroes. Dragons breathe fire, mindwarpers shoot psionic bolts, liches cast spells, and even lesser creatures might launch spikes, breathe frost, etc. And anything with hands ought to have weapons.
And arguably the Big Bad Wolf ought to be able to blow your house down, or you a dozen yards into the nearest wall or tree, in order to soften you up.

Or have a really high skill for Deceptive Attack, or have Extra Attack and a good enough skill that it benefits you to Feint and Attack on a regular basis, or if you're really getting so little mileage out of your own defenses, do an AoA as Feint and Attack.
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Old 01-17-2012, 12:46 PM   #37
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Default Re: [DF] Big Bad Wolf

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The Timber Wolf model from allies is a 187pt weight class critter

Any idea what a 450pt weight class wolf would look like?
Human level IQ, they have to be smart if you're going to be a challenging 450pt creature, otherwise they can be tricked pretty easily. I also find some levels in Disguise and Acting are pretty much essential for high cp wolves too, its very easy to misjudge their importance and give too little which pretty much defeats the entire investment, so make sure you get enough. Remember that a sheep is often an easier disguise for a wolf than an elderly person is, so if in doubt stick to the easy stuff.

But otherwise I'd just generally dial up all of the normal wolf characteristics to 11.
Lots of additional ST helps in all natural combat a wolf will be performing in, a size upgrade also seems prudent at that cp level which will make it cheaper.
You should also look into keeping its Move and Dodge up, again normal wolves harry their prey until they find an opening, so being able to stay out of harms way until that point is pretty much essential.
Make sure its got Night Vision at max or Dark Vision too.

Increase Brawling skill a lot so that it can make lots of deceptive attacks, boost Stealth as well so that it can get initial strikes in. A level or two of Silence might also work here, limited to only woodlands if you don't want it to be too supernatural.
Give it some techniques for targeting neck and limbs as those are favoured attacks.

Depending on how supernatural it is give it a lot more DR, if its still meant to be a normal animal make it Tough Skin. Increasing its HT will keep it alive for a lot longer too, but a few levels of Hard to Kill and Hard to Subdue would also really help here without inflating its HT too high so that poisons can still affect it.

If you're willing to go a little less mundane in its characteristics, give it a Terror (hearing) attack for a wolf howl that'll stun enemies before/during combat, Takes Extra Time might be needed for the classic long drawn out howl too. Make sure you invest in additional fright check penalties to get worthwhile results.
Also if you're finding damage still a little too weak, put in some more levels of Striking ST or even Weapon Master (Bite) to allow them to really chew through armour.
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Old 01-17-2012, 01:30 PM   #38
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Default Re: [DF] Big Bad Wolf

oh hey additional info: this is the red riding hood 'big bad wolf'

So perhaps 'morph: cosmetic only, strange features- needs sample: must eat whole body'

Cause either the wolf could morph.

Red riding hood was more then mildly obtuse.

Grandma looked pretty wolfish.
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Old 01-17-2012, 02:18 PM   #39
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Default Re: [DF] Big Bad Wolf

The wolf dressed itself up in Grandmas clothes - that I think was the condition rather than eating Grandma. Eating Grandma certainly was a logical thing for a monster to do once he got Grandma out of her clothes, but with the various kinder-gentler versions with Grandma locked in the cellar or in the wardrobe, clearly kids buy "wears her clothes" as the explanation.

I'd make it a glamour myself. I don't think it's real shapeshifting, and Red Riding Hood does see through it - "what big eyes, what big ears, what big teeth" - clearly she sees a wolf. She's just completely freeking deluded in the classic Grimm version.

Note that earlier (and modern) versions have Red Riding hood climb into bed with the wolf, and some of the early pre-grimm versions may be implying they get up to no good while they're in there together. Certainly some of the modern versions do but those are not-for-children retellings. I'd call that either Mind Control, or out-right Riding Hood is seduced and corrupted.
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Old 01-17-2012, 02:34 PM   #40
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Default Re: [DF] Big Bad Wolf

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
As far as "unarmed attackers are hosed vs. weapon parries" go, two things:

On the other hand, arguably the biting and clawing monsters aren't the ones that seriously scare heroes. Dragons breathe fire, mindwarpers shoot psionic bolts, liches cast spells, and even lesser creatures might launch spikes, breathe frost, etc. And anything with hands ought to have weapons.
For that reason, I'd add a #3:

3) In DF, monsters that bite, grab, or claw are meant to attack from the flanks, by surprise, or en masse. They are also meant to die horribly, in droves, while doing so. So just use more of them.


My question - the one that seems to have sparked this sub-thread - was aimed at a PC's ally rather than monsters. I'm the GM, I have all the monsters I need. 10 wolves aren't a problem? How about 20? No? 100? See, I can just use more of the ones that take a head cut to try to deliver a bite. But the horrible consequences of unarmed attacks by bite-based PCs and PC allies was one I was wondering about. :D
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