And ye shall know the Truth ...

[Rocket Man]

I seem to have Seraphim on my mind lately. This may have come up before, but I can't find it on a search: what happens if a Seraph resonates on a statement spoken in a language he or she doesn't know?

Example: Richard the Seraph is looking for Sneaky Pete, who is hiding out in Cairo. He resonates on an Egyptian who may know Pete and asks: "Where is Peter Martindale, the one called Sneaky Pete by some?"

The Egyptian speaks little English but recognizes the name. In Egyptian, he says (falsely) "I do not know who this Pete is that you speak of. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have many things to do."

The Seraph doesn't speak a word of Egyptian; to his conscious brain, it's all meaningless babble. How does his resonance work under such circumstances ... and what does it give him on a CD6?

[Matthias Wasser]

My immediate intuition here is:

1: whatever he just said was a lie...
2: ...and that second part was where he lied...
3: ...and he lied because Sneaky Pete is said to eat snitches alive...
4: ...and that he believes Sneaky Pete is in Damascus...
5: ...and he's wrong, Sneaky Pete isn't in Damascus...
6: ...Sneaky Pete is in Alexandria.

The more difficult case, which you may be working your way towards, is variable use of language within the same tongue. Let's say that Lucy the Libertarian, Sam the Socialist, and Igor the Ignoramus all make the utterance "France is a socialist country."

By "socialist," Lucy means "having a welfare state," so unless Lucy is so misinformed as to think that France doesn't have a welfare state, presumably she's telling the truth.

By "socialist," Sam means "where workers own the means of production," so unless Sam is so misinformed as to think that French workers own the means of production, presumably he's telling a lie.

Here's the interesting case: by "socialist," Igor doesn't mean anything at all. He picked up "France is a socialist country" from a friend, or a book, or the news, or whatever, and he says it at cocktail parties to sound learned, but it's just a potted fact. Presumably CD1 will tell us that he believes what he's telling is the truth, and CD6 will tell us that sometimes "socialist" is used to mean having a welfare state (true of France) and sometimes to mean worker ownership of the means of production (not true of France) and that Igor has no idea about any of that. And presumably we know that last part at CD5. Okay.

If everything I've posted so far is how things work, then Seraphim can empirically test Gettier sentences. Let's say a Seraph of the Wind steals someone's watch (unbeknownst to her) from her coat pocket, but replaces it with a different watch. Then he activates his Resonance, gets CD5, and asks her whether she has a watch in her Coat pocket. Does she Know that there is one?

Further cases: in the "socialism" example there's not really a canonically accepted definition. Consider something canonically accepted: the definition of a prime number. Let's say we ask James, who was taught that a prime number is any whole number with only itself and 1 as factors, whether 1 is a prime number: when he replies that yes, it is, at what CD do we learn that mathematicians include "greater than one" as part of the definition of prime numbers?

[gjc8]

Originally Posted by Matthias Wasser

My immediate intuition here is:

1: whatever he just said was a lie...
2: ...and that second part was where he lied...
3: ...and he lied because Sneaky Pete is said to eat snitches alive...
4: ...and that he believes Sneaky Pete is in Damascus...
5: ...and he's wrong, Sneaky Pete isn't in Damascus...
6: ...Sneaky Pete is in Alexandria.

4:...he believes Sneaky Pete is in دِمَشق...
6:...Sneaky Pete is in الإسكندري.
On Earth, Angels are bound by the curse of Babel just like humans. The Seraph can still hear the truth, but they can't always understand what it is. In my opinion, at least.

[William]

Originally Posted by gjc8

4:...he believes Sneaky Pete is in دِمَشق...
6:...Sneaky Pete is in الإسكندري.
On Earth, Angels are bound by the curse of Babel just like humans. The Seraph can still hear the truth, but they can't always understand what it is. In my opinion, at least.

This is the generally-held position, to my understanding. The Seraph gets a response in the language resonated. That even includes Helltongue!

[Acolyte]

I'm not comfortable with "the Seraph gets gobblede****" as a convention. Seraphim are beings aligned to a universal truth so powerful it took form and then Named itself God (in the process naming the part of it that named it Yves, etc), at least in canon. Such a truth isn't really bound by language (hence the "passing a fake ID to the Seraph bouncer at the club triggers his resonance" bit).

The sticky wicket comes in on low-CD rolls. The Seraph may know a lie was said, even why it was said, but doesn't really know which part of the last several minutes' dialogue (or monologue, given that there's a language barrier issue) was a lie. He doesn't know if the person answered his question with a lie, deflected it with a lie, and so on. And if the resonance says no lies, that doesn't mean the human was being honest. Consider this exchange:

Seraph: "Do you know about the stolen diamonds, ma'am?"
Thief: "Err...I really must pick up my kids from school, stranger."

In this case, both speaking the same language, the Seraph might hear "no lie" if she's really on her way out the door to get Little Susie and Junior, but he's no closer to finding the diamonds, and he knows it. Example 2:

Seraph: "Do you know about the stolen diamonds, ma'am?"
Thief: (speaking a language the Seraph doesn't know) "I'm sorry, I don't understand."
Seraph: "The diamonds. Do you know about them!?"
Thief: (shaking her head) "I really don't understand you."

The Seraph might interpret the shaking head as "no" and since his resonance said "no lies", he may incorrectly assume the woman is not the jewel thief. But she was shaking her head in frustration.

--

So while the Seraph gets information, it's not in as useful a context, and partial knowledge can sometimes be even more dangerous than knowing nothing at all. In fact, switching languages when faced with a Seraph might be demon-101 for those who are actually multilingual:
Demonic Instructor: "Now the Seraph asks you if you are a demon, what should you do?"
Smart Pupil: "Switch to Portuguese and say 'no, the sky is not orange' while shaking my head and thinking very hard about the sky."
Smarter Pupil: "Say nothing. Flee!"
Even Smarter Pupil: "Say 'Why do you want to know?' "
Smartest Pupil: (remain silent so as not to call attention to self in class, but tell the teacher a good idea later to make an impression on it)

[gjc8]

Originally Posted by Acolyte

I'm not comfortable with "the Seraph gets gobblede****" as a convention.

It's not gobblede****. It's truth; even Truth if the Seraph rolls well. It's just that the Seraph is unable to understand it.

Originally Posted by Acolyte

Seraphim are beings aligned to a universal truth so powerful it took form and then Named itself God (in the process naming the part of it that named it Yves, etc), at least in canon. Such a truth isn't really bound by language (hence the "passing a fake ID to the Seraph bouncer at the club triggers his resonance" bit).

The resonance isn't bound by language, the Seraph is. And if a Superior can screw with a resonance, then God, who confounded the speech of men at Babel, can surely do the same.

[DBloch2012]

What? This topic makes no sense.

Originally Posted by In Nomine Core Rulebook, p. 94

Seraphim have the ability to see into men’s hearts to the reality within.

Unless the Egyptian was speaking Egyptian in his heart, I do not think the Seraph in question should have any problems reading into the truth of the matter. Whether or not they can understand the language should not enter the equation.

Originally Posted by In Nomine Core Rulebook, p. 94

For game purposes, there are two sorts of truth to consider: the truth as the speaker understands it, and the absolute Truth as the Symphony knows it, the actual fact of the way things are.

In my understanding, the Seraph in question needs to resonate his Essence with the Symphony to get insight into the truth. And, unless the Symphony speaks in Egyptian as well, I doubt it will hinder the Seraph's understanding.

[Acolyte]

And, unless the Symphony speaks in Egyptian as well, I doubt it will hinder the Seraph's understanding.

Agree. It seems to fit best with the RAW and the spirit of the Seraphic Resonance. Any thoughts on why the generally-held convention would be the reverse?

[DBloch2012]

Probably because they do not see it as tuning into the Symphony for universal answers, but actually reading the subject's mind. Which, here, would be thinking in Egyptian.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Acolyte

Agree. It seems to fit best with the RAW and the spirit of the Seraphic Resonance. Any thoughts on why the generally-held convention would be the reverse?

Because otherwise there's no point to the Corporeal Song of Tongues? :)

More seriously, I certainly don't see this as mind-reading. It's the examination of a statement in comparison to the Truth of the Symphony and the person's heart. What I'm not sure about is whether the Seraph can properly resonate -- whether he/she can properly examine the statement -- if he/she doesn't even know what the statement is or whether a meaningful statement has been made.