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Old 07-06-2012, 11:53 AM   #1
vicky_molokh
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Default Worldbuilding without the post-WW/WWII/Cold War glasses (TL, CR etc.)

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
I still think Asta Kask is looking at the 1920s through post-WW II glasses (“obviously governments regulate X”). Goverments in the 1920s had very little involvement in most of the areas that we expect them to regulate today.
Greetings, all!

I think this quote deserves to spawn its own thread in the context of consistent worldbuilding. Many of our ideas about how the world (including many a fictional one) works are derived from how our, modern world works. And the string of World War / World War II / Cold War have shaped many aspects of our world. And yet, many settings did not develop along the same historical lines. Some I wonder:

What preconceptions and ideas should be 'unlearned' when designing a world (with TL, CRs, Statuses, Stigmas and other features) which hasn't experienced WW-/ColdWar-equivalents?

Gun Control has been mentioned. Passports are another one (passport/border checks were extremely mild/non-existent pre-WWI by modern standards).

What else?

Thanks in advance!
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Old 07-06-2012, 12:34 PM   #2
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Default Re: Worldbuilding without the post-WW/WWII/Cold War glasses (TL, CR etc.)

Women's/minorities' (and in some cases majorities') rights and roles in society.

Prior to WWII (or was it WWI?), women were not permitted to work in factories; the only reason they were permitted to do so during the war is because the war effort required more bodies on the factories' assembly lines, and there was a shortage of men due to the front lines. Even prior to that, it was extremely rare to find a woman doing what was traditionally "men's work": doctors, lawyers, etc.

I'm not sure how things were in other countries, but segregation of people by skin color was prominent in the US until the 1960s (and even in South Africa until even more recently), with some races (blacks, Jews, etc) being considered "inferior" by the ruling elite.

A lot of this was the believed "superiority" of the European white male over all others.
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Old 07-06-2012, 12:42 PM   #3
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Default Re: Worldbuilding without the post-WW/WWII/Cold War glasses (TL, CR etc.)

Women's role in society is probably a lot closer to how it was before. And, of course, everyone is a lot wealthier. A lot. Unimaginably so. Most of the wealth created in Europe during the industrial revolution was destroyed during the war, or spent on the wars that followed. And there probably aren't any nuclear weapons. I wonder if there would even be satellites or computers. I doubt it.

No telling what happened in Russia and China. Oh, and there was never any roaring twenties (look at the social mores there!) or great depression. Which means that the depression never led to FDR and his social programs, or to any of the social programs that followed. Also, check out that commerce clause!

I wonder what would have happened with Japan. Would they have been free to have their little wars? Maybe they conquered Korea and parts of Russia. It's possible that there would have been a Japanese Empire.

On a lighter note, those pulp magazines from the twenties never went out of style, since there was no depression. Television might not ever have been as popular, since the print industry wasn't wiped out at the same time the economy recovered.

I guess there wouldn't have been any nuclear power without all that research during the war, but I don't know enough about the science to guess.

Maybe without the war Tesla would have had another ten years of inventing left in him, but I'm not so sure about that. They wouldn't have blown up his tower. His spirits might have been considerably higher during those years.

Of course, there wouldn't have been any war to have hints of racial integration in. That's probably pretty important.

But generally I think the biggest difference would be how incredibly wealthy everyone would be, at least in the west. It's nearly incomprehensible how much wealth was destroyed during the wars and depressions and recessions that followed.

Oh! They might not have had alcohol prohibition either. The war had a pretty big impact on that, as I understand.

Those automatics weapons never would have been outlawed. And they probably never would have had any reason to start outlawing any weapons, what with no nuclear weapons ever being invented.

Europe looks really crazy, though. I don't think you would have had a Soviet Union. Still have a German empire. Never would have had Communist China.

And there's no telling how much higher the world's population would be. After all, didn't about a billion people die in those wars and under the regimes that were able to come to be because of them? They never would have had that big influenza outbreak here in the states.

Things would be a lot less centralized. There wouldn't be any federal highway system. Maybe people would still use trains. Or maybe air travel would be much more prominent. People probably deal on a much more local level.

Last edited by ErhnamDJ; 07-06-2012 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 07-06-2012, 12:45 PM   #4
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Default Re: Worldbuilding without the post-WW/WWII/Cold War glasses (TL, CR etc.)

I love the descriptions of bigotry & racism given in the GURPS 3e Cthulhupunk book, where it explains a nuanced attitude that existed in Lovecraft's time but which ALL falls under "racism" today. Modern sensibilities have evolved in such a way that most people have very black and white views on the subject.
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Old 07-06-2012, 12:49 PM   #5
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Default Re: Worldbuilding without the post-WW/WWII/Cold War glasses (TL, CR etc.)

Neither gun control nor passports are really a feature of WW/WWII/Cold War influences; gun control is primarily a function of an increasingly urbanized society (with little personal attachment to firearms, since they don't hunt) and increasingly deadly weapons, passports and the like are a function of increased mobility and an increasingly bureaucratic society (also a function of urbanization/population density).
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Old 07-06-2012, 12:51 PM   #6
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Default Re: Worldbuilding without the post-WW/WWII/Cold War glasses (TL, CR etc.)

I find David Drake books very interesting on the 'worlds lacking modern organization' level. I think it draws on old Rome quite a bit, though I doubt that's the only influence. I don't know how much of it fits into the early 20th century stuff of the previous thread, but if you go back further, or into less orderly regions...


One that's probably got a history as old as cities, if not older, is important people usually packing a personal warband when going about. If the local law doesn't allow an outright private army (which, often, it does) or you don't happen to own one, a gang of slaves, clients, employees, or extended family members can substitute. Some of the very elite still do something like this today, but my impression is that it was much more broadly practiced in the past.
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Old 07-06-2012, 12:55 PM   #7
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Default Re: Worldbuilding without the post-WW/WWII/Cold War glasses (TL, CR etc.)

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Neither gun control nor passports are really a feature of WW/WWII/Cold War influences; gun control is primarily a function of an increasingly urbanized society (with little personal attachment to firearms, since they don't hunt) and increasingly deadly weapons
I don't know about that. Without the gangsters using them in the depression, and without their mass production during the wars, I'm not sure how much exposure people--and politicians--would have to automatic weapons. Would the Thompson have even been invented absent the war? I doubt it.

People's views on guns here in the US were pretty benevolent back then. Without a substantial event to change those views, I would expect them to stay the same.

But automatic weapons are pretty useless. Without alcohol or drug prohibition, I would expect them to just be something else firearms enthusiasts put in their safes. It looks like a negligible difference to me.
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Old 07-06-2012, 12:57 PM   #8
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Default Re: Worldbuilding without the post-WW/WWII/Cold War glasses (TL, CR etc.)

No cold war means no Vietnam, it also ends up meaning no war on drugs. That makes big changes to Timothy Leary and his crew, who may not have ended up being "anti-establishment" poster children but instead been legitimized to some degree which would change a lot as far as both our attitudes towards incarceration/rehabilitation and psychiatry.
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Old 07-06-2012, 01:00 PM   #9
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Default Re: Worldbuilding without the post-WW/WWII/Cold War glasses (TL, CR etc.)

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No cold war means no Vietnam, it also ends up meaning no war on drugs.
I wouldn't want to end up in an accident in that world. Whole lot of medical advances out of Vietnam.
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Old 07-06-2012, 01:01 PM   #10
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Default Re: Worldbuilding without the post-WW/WWII/Cold War glasses (TL, CR etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Neither gun control nor passports are really a feature of WW/WWII/Cold War influences; gun control is primarily a function of an increasingly urbanized society (with little personal attachment to firearms, since they don't hunt) and increasingly deadly weapons, passports and the like are a function of increased mobility and an increasingly bureaucratic society (also a function of urbanization/population density).
On passports: to the contrary, increased mobility were the reason behind the passports not being strictly enforced before WWI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by History of passports
The rapid expansion of rail travel and wealth in Europe from the mid-nineteenth century led to a unique dissolution of the passport system for thirty odd years before WWI. The speed of trains, as well as the numbers of passengers that crossed many borders, made enforcement of passport laws difficult. The general reaction was the relaxation of passport requirements. In the later part of the nineteenth century and up to World War I, passports were not required, on the whole, for travel within Europe, and crossing a border was straightforward. Consequently, comparatively few people had passports. Most countries issued passports but countries that demanded travelers have a passport were considered backwards.
Early passports included a description of the passport holder. Photographs began to be attached to passports in the early decades of the twentieth century, when photography became widespread.
During World War I, European governments introduced border passport requirements for security reasons (to keep out spies) and to control the emigration of citizens with useful skills, retaining potential manpower. These controls remained in place after the war, and became standard procedure, though not without controversy. British tourists of the 1920s complained, especially about attached photographs and physical descriptions, which they considered led to a "nasty dehumanisation".
The discussion of gun laws in the other threat seems to indicate that many firearms became restricted roughly with the start of WWII. Whether it was linked or a coincidence I'm not as sure as you are that it is the latter.
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