One-Handed Spear Reach and Reversed Grip

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

styles that actually employs one handed reversed grip on full length swords as a general thing

I've never heard of it as a general thing. Quite a number of styles, European and Asian, have reverse grips for particular purposes or desperate situations. But I don't know of a style that uses a reversed grip as the primary means of holding a sword. Zatoichi and Ahsoka Tano are just innovators in their field.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

I've never heard of it as a general thing. Quite a number of styles, European and Asian, have reverse grips for particular purposes or desperate situations. But I don't know of a style that uses a reversed grip as the primary means of holding a sword. Zatoichi and Ahsoka Tano are just innovators in their field.

Cool, cheers!

[acrosome]

I'm not entirely convince that a reversed one-handed grip is the best way to employ a spear over your shield in a shield wall. I mean, I'm sure it is standard in many styles, but it's still awkward. (The Bayeux Tapestry shows it, but then medieval tapestries aren't often correct on minutiae.) And I have to give the caveat that I've never actually trained with a spear.

But a high normal grip feels much better controlled and also stronger. Try it, get a pole and use it in reversed grip- your grip feels weak and uncontrolled. Now hold it in regular (underhanded) one-handed grip, but raise your elbow above your shoulder high enough to get over your shield and stab with it. Much better. You can also brace the pole along your forearm or under your upper arm for better control (and reach).

So I think that the normal GURPS reversed-grip rules work just fine.

[CarrionPeacock]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

It is the grip. To use a spear one-handed, you have to grip the spear at the middle of the haft. You can grip it at the base when using it two-handed, giving you more reach. When you are using a reverse grip, you reverse while holding the middle one-handed, meaning that head is only a foot from your elbow, so it is a C reach.

Wait, why gripping the middle of spear with normal grip gives longer reach compared to holding the same point with reversed grip? Looking at this image:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...o_hoplites.jpg
It doesn't seem to warrant difference enough to make a spear reach become as short as a knife. Thinking about it, even normal grip doesn't make much sense, looking at that picture and others from google it seems weird to me that it would have the same reach as sword. Every source I read says spear was the main melee weapon through the ages because of reach and that a sword was a sidearm, yet a cheap longsword is 5 times the price of a spear but it has better reach and can do swing damage. A sidearm better than primary weapon doesn't make much sense.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Personally I wouldn't reduce reach with a 1 handed spear used with a reverse overarm grip. You are still basically holding the spear at the same balance point as you would for a one handed underarm grip so there should be no reduction of range*. It's a better grip for shield walls etc.


There is a question about the reach value of one handed normal spears though. But I think it really comes down to the granularity of the reach rules and spears being subdivided into hard and fast categories (which is kind of unavoidable in a playable system)

There was recent thread where this was discussed and some options suggested

I'm no hoplite but that sounds more realistic. Do you know if there's some official clarification somewhere? The link was interesting read and modifying the Spear to be 1,2* when one-handed is nice but I was hoping for something more official. It's hard to see why there wouldn't be a spear longe than the normal spear but shorter than the long spear that would have the reach of an actual spear, not a sword.

Edit: Looking at this video, the spear seems to have reach 1 even without the sliding technique. It's safe to say it doesn't have the same reach as a dagger while reverse gripped, isn't it?

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by acrosome

I'm not entirely convince that a reversed one-handed grip is the best way to employ a spear over your shield in a shield wall. I mean, I'm sure it is standard in many styles, but it's still awkward. (The Bayeux Tapestry shows it, but then medieval tapestries aren't often correct on minutiae.) And I have to give the caveat that I've never actually trained with a spear.

But a high normal grip feels much better controlled and also stronger. Try it, get a pole and use it in reversed grip- your grip feels weak and uncontrolled. Now hold it in regular (underhanded) one-handed grip, but raise your elbow above your shoulder high enough to get over your shield and stab with it. Much better. You can also brace the pole along your forearm or under your upper arm for better control (and reach).

So I think that the normal GURPS reversed-grip rules work just fine.

You thinking something like this?


Honestly it kind of depends on how big the shields are and how tightly they overlap, and thus how close you are to the chap on your spear side. IME the kind of high underarm thrust you describe ends up being awkward because you end often having to twist your arm to get over the shield and past the chap next to you. That twist not only limits you range of movement but also power and control. Or you have to drop your shied slightly to give you self more room to get over it and keep you arm/shoulder on top of the spear

When there's no wall obviously you can also thrust round the side of your shield. As well as move you shield around more freely in concert with your spear, making it easier.

One advantage of overarm over the lifted underarm here is that it's easier and more comfortable to keep you spear back with your arm 'cocked' and out the way with overarm and then quickly thrust as the spear and arm is already naturally in place. To do this with the underarm over the shield thrust requires you either to 'cock' you arm back out to the side with the shoulder twisted back, or have the spear held close and up against the shield, and with the arm curled tightly into the body which is difficult to quickly thrust from as you have to move the arm and spear back into a ready position (again while standing next to you mate and maintaining a wall).

But holding it over arm makes it very had to rest the butt on the ground, so that's tiring in another context!

Another issue is in recovering back after the thrust. With overarm because I'm keeping my arm straight in line with my body I just pull my arm back and recoil it into my shoulder. With the lifted under arm because I have to raise my elbow out to the side I have to either pull by my elbow back out to the side to keep the spear pointed forward at my opponent or I have to twist my arm back into my body bringing my spear tip up and away from my opponent.

In general the lifted underarm with cocked elbow involves lifting my arm in a direction my shoulder doesn't really want to go in comparison to the overarm position, and that's tiring. Your basically operating closer to the edge of range of shoulder movement. On top of that you trying to keep this arm and spear from interfering with your shield and the chap next to you.

As for stronger isn't all else being equal over arm thrusts stronger than underarm just a matter of biomechanics? (I may well be wrong here)

I agree with you you that there's some awkwardness with overarm thrust of long poles, when you arm is cocked you can have 90 degree angle between forearm and spear shaft so your only supporting it with your hand, and I agree your wrist is weaker* in side to side movement overhand/reversed than underarm. So I would give a penalty to parry as I mentioned earlier. But I think in a shield wall situation you are freer to use your elbow to provide a range of side to side motion that it would be harder for it to do in the kind of lifted under arm thrust above because the elbow would be lifted out and to the side.


I wouldn't say I'm an spear and shield expert, but I have messed about in shield walls a bit over the years.

However I do know that this is a question that comes up at times, and I think it's likely one of those "in some cases X is on balance better than Y, but in others Y edges out X". (a quick google gave me this discussion top of the list)



*not in terms of range of motion, but in terms of maintaining and transmitting strength through it.

[Sorenant]

My understanding is that overarm grip was used like this and if so it seems fair to classify it as reach C.
The ones behind this wall would use Long Spears and those even behind would use Pikes.
I agree that some swords has reaches that seems excessive but I believe those are balanced against their prices. Katana can swing at reach 2 and costs $650, Longsword can thrust at same reach and costs $700, a Spear can only thrust at reach 1 but it costs only $40, you could apply Very Fine (+14 CF), Balanced (+4 CF) and Armor-Piercing (+3 CF) for $880 and get a weapon that deals thr+3(2) damage and gives you +1 skill.

A good loadout I like for my fantasy characters is Shield + Long Spear and a Hatchet as backup. The Long Spear's reach helps dealing with distant foes and if they get too close for your spear, you can throw it away as free action then Fast-Draw your Hatchet to deal with them. A Hatchet also complements a spear's lack of swing cut attacks, useful against foes with Injury Tolerance.

[DanHoward]

Many one-handed spears had counter weights on the butt to let you hold it further back. Many were also tapered so that the tip was thinner than the butt, which moved the center of gravity towards the butt, which lets you hold it further back and also makes it more comfortable to use with an overhand grip. Very few re-enactors bother to use tapered spear shafts so they never get an accurate idea of how spears really handle.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

My understanding is that overarm grip was used like this and if so it seems fair to classify it as reach C.

Those spears are a little too short. A typical hoplite spear was 7-9 feet long.

[Rasna]

Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock

I've seem someone complaining about this elsewhere and it intrigued me, why is it so hard to attack someone at 2 yards with a spear, the quintessential long reach weapon?
With the ordinary spear you either have to wield it with two hands, giving up shield, or use All-out Attack (Long). With the long spear, you can't attack a foe a yard away and lose the ability to parry unless wielding it with both hands.
Another question is about reversed grip, what is the exact result when using it with a spear? A spear hold in one hand has reach 1, so does it become reach C or does it keep reach 1 because its long shaft? What about long spears, at first they seem unqualified to be used with reversed grip due to the max reach of 3 but they can be wielded for reach 2, does it change anything?

IMO the best thing you can do is simply give Reach 1, 2* to the spear even if held in one hand for the underarm grip (and consequently Reach C, 1* for the overarm grip). I own a six-feet spear (which fits as GURPS Spear) and a replica of the sword of Fiore de Liberi (which probably fits as GURPS Thrusting Bastard Sword), both blunt for armored full-contact sparring but otherwise identical to their medieval counterparts in weight, length, construction and materials. If you hold the six-feet spear at 3/5 of his shaft length starting from the point, the Reach of the weapon is few centimeters superior than that of the longsword and you can use the weapon perfectly, without suffering for bad bio-mechanics.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

You thinking something like this?

Paul Bardunias's new book squashes that idea pretty thoroughly. He has pulled together enough evidence to be pretty certain that, at least as far as Greek hoplites are concerned, spears were used overhanded. With different shields and different spears and different traditions, the spear might have been used in a shield wall like in that photo, but not in the Aegean.

https://www.amazon.com/Hoplites-War-.../dp/1476666024