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Old 05-24-2019, 04:53 PM   #1
Michael Thayne
 
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Default [Magic] In ceremonial magic, what's the minimum FP expenditure for the leader?

Ceremonial magic requires at least one person who knows the spell at level 15+. But how much FP does that person (the "leader") have to spend to do the ceremonial magic? The rules say, "Energy cost does not change, but your assistants can supplement your energy input..." What does this mean? Does the extra energy from assistants only count towards getting the skill bonus for extra energy? Can it reduce the caster's cost to cast the spell to 1 FP? To 0 FP? In the first case, ceremonial magic's applications are fairly nice. In the second case, enough assistants will let you cast many powerful spells about every ten minutes (ten minutes and ten seconds?) or perhaps even more frequently with help from Recover Energy. In the last case, where the leader's FP cost can be reduced to zero, you're potentially casting a spell every 10 seconds. Which is it? Do we have an official ruling on this anywhere?
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Old 05-24-2019, 05:58 PM   #2
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: [Magic] In ceremonial magic, what's the minimum FP expenditure for the leader?

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Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
Ceremonial magic requires at least one person who knows the spell at level 15+. But how much FP does that person (the "leader") have to spend to do the ceremonial magic? ?
The spell's energy requirwements go from individual to group i.e a maxed Fireball at Magery 3 still has a total cost of 9 adjusted for High Skill. The cost can be divided up anyway they want as long as you end up at 9.
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Old 05-24-2019, 06:14 PM   #3
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: [Magic] In ceremonial magic, what's the minimum FP expenditure for the leader?

Per M12, "as much energy as he wishes to contribute" (as is the case for any mage in the group of skill 15+, not just the leader). The lesser contributors (nonmages at 15+, or mages at 14-) still have a choice, anything up to 3 points. So it could be zero.

This leaves open the possibility for the skilled to sabotage a ritual, not just the spectators. All they have to do is refuse to contribute their energy when the roll comes.

(GMs may want to let the leader pull extra energy from the other sources, if available, to save the ritual. Or they might decide that rituals, being the elaborate programmed constructs that they are, can't so easily be adapted at the last second by rearranging the sub-tasks on the fly -- so even one participant refusing to provide 1 energy point can make the ritual fall short of the necessary energy. Paranoid leaders in such a setting might well arrange for more participants than needed if they aren't sure they can trust their entire circle. Insert options for social interaction when planning the ritual, should it be an important event in the game, not to mention the plot points the betrayal will generate. At least "regardless of the outcome of the die roll, all the contributed energy is spent", so the betraying mage might be able to escape the circle if they're all exhausted by their ritual.)
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Old 05-24-2019, 07:15 PM   #4
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: [Magic] In ceremonial magic, what's the minimum FP expenditure for the leader?

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Per M12, "as much energy as he wishes to contribute" (as is the case for any mage in the group of skill 15+, not just the leader). The lesser contributors (nonmages at 15+, or mages at 14-) still have a choice, anything up to 3 points. So it could be zero.
For non-leaders, it says 1 to N, depending. Zero isn't an option for them. It makes sense that if you're not leading the ceremony or contributing FP, your not really part of the ritual at all. OTOH "as much as you wish" is not quite the same thing as "as little as you wish". So I can't quite extract a clear meaning from that text.

Pyramid #3/52 briefly discusses the use of ceremonial magic with Bless Plants to increase crop yield, and seems to assume the caster has a minimum FP cost of 1. It's not explicit, though, so I'm not sure if it should be taken as an official ruling or not.
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Old 05-25-2019, 12:44 PM   #5
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: [Magic] In ceremonial magic, what's the minimum FP expenditure for the leader?

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For non-leaders, it says 1 to N, depending.
Where does it say that? All I see in the box on Ceremonial Magic on M12 is "up to 3".

You could certainly reasonably rule that a participant has to contribute at least 1 energy in order to be considered as "participating". (Though that leaves the negative contributions of opposed believers in a bit of an odd case, as they wouldn't be "participating" as they're not adding a point of energy -- so who cares what their intent is, any more than that of random other rivals in town that might want you to fail?) I was just pointing out that if you take the words as written, it opens up a possibility that might occasionally be of narrative interest.
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Old 05-25-2019, 02:23 PM   #6
Rupert
 
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Default Re: [Magic] In ceremonial magic, what's the minimum FP expenditure for the leader?

If someone says they're participating, or pretends to, and then doesn't contribute when expected to do so, they aren't just giving 0 energy, in my opinion. They are opposing the cast, especially if they're withholding energy with the intent that the spell will fail as a result. Therefore they don't provide 0 energy, but -5 energy (though if we assume that 'spectator' specifically only means the non-mages, a mage can't oppose a casting like this).

BTW, ceremonial magic specifically doesn't get shorter cast times, or cheaper costs, from high skill, and nor does high skill allow reduced ritual actions.
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Old 05-25-2019, 04:36 PM   #7
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: [Magic] In ceremonial magic, what's the minimum FP expenditure for the leader?

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Where does it say that? All I see in the box on Ceremonial Magic on M12 is "up to 3".

You could certainly reasonably rule that a participant has to contribute at least 1 energy in order to be considered as "participating". (Though that leaves the negative contributions of opposed believers in a bit of an odd case, as they wouldn't be "participating" as they're not adding a point of energy -- so who cares what their intent is, any more than that of random other rivals in town that might want you to fail?) I was just pointing out that if you take the words as written, it opens up a possibility that might occasionally be of narrative interest.
Huh, the "1 to 3" (or whatever) wording is found in Dungeon Fantasy 15: Henchmen p. 20, but not other versions of the ceremonial magic rules.
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Old 05-25-2019, 04:58 PM   #8
Anthony
 
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Default Re: [Magic] In ceremonial magic, what's the minimum FP expenditure for the leader?

There is usually no point to not spending high fatigue as the leader (someone can just lend energy you back up anyway), but I don't see evidence for a required minimum.
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Old 05-26-2019, 04:59 AM   #9
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Default Re: [Magic] In ceremonial magic, what's the minimum FP expenditure for the leader?

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There is usually no point to not spending high fatigue as the leader (someone can just lend energy you back up anyway), but I don't see evidence for a required minimum.
I can easily imagine someone with many lackeys wanting to lead a ritual casting without spending FP, especially if expecting to need that FP for non-ritual casting in the very near future. But I'm imagining a villain, mostly (the heroes are just over 10 minutes away, lackeys, let us cast this usually 1-minute spell ritually, but you will provide all the energy for it, leaving me with more energy to cast fireballs at those heroes).
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Old 05-26-2019, 07:45 AM   #10
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: [Magic] In ceremonial magic, what's the minimum FP expenditure for the leader?

Anyone who is participating should probably spend a minimum of 1 FP, which is a relatively light expense. Of course, ceremonial magic gives a military force with an experienced mage rather substantial advantages. For example, let us say that you have an army with a mage who knows Create Gate. A gate cast ceremonially for 100 FP would take 17 minutes to cast but could easily allow two people to move 500 miles. The mage and the ceremonial assistants could maintain the spell for 10 minutes, easily allowing 1,200 people to deploy 500 miles in half an hour.
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