The Fantasy Trip

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

-- The strongest figure in HTH gets +2 DX.

George Silver sends his regards. :-)

[tbeard1999]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Hi all,
There has been a fair bit of debate on how to fix HTH on the TFT forums.

Long ago, I went with a "cinematic" version of HTH fighting. I'm typing this from memory, so the details may be off.

The big problem with HTH combat, besides being fiddly, is that the damage is way too low. And armor makes it a miserable, boring experience.

Grappling

I based the grappling rules off of my real world experience in Judo (which I hated). In my experience, strength and center of gravity was a LOT more important than technique once you grappled.

If the target agrees to grapple, the grapple is successful. If the target resists, make an adjDX roll to grapple. 4/adjDX if opponent has a higher level of Unarmed Combat talent (or Wrestling and you don't).

Then, each turn make a ST vs ST roll (modified by unarmed combat talent and a new wrestling/judo talent). The winner can (a) choke the opponent for 2 points of stun damage; (b) throw the opponent into an adjacent hex; or (c) render the foe immobile for that turn. The loser gets no action. The figures are on the ground.

Fisticuffs

I based fisticuffs off of 8 years (1977-85; Moo Duk Kwan) in Tae Kwon Do (which included a couple of years of judo; my instructor taught both), plus occasional cross-training in Isshin-ryu karate, Shotokon karate, and some humiliating training with a golden gloves boxer buddy. And a lot of Chuck Norris movies.

Fisticuffs does stun damage - i.e., fatigue damage that can be recovered quickly).

Punches require adjacency, a 3/adjDX roll to hit, and do 1d6 damage, +1 for ST 15-20, +2 for ST 21-30, +3 for ST 31-40, etc. These bonuses are based on memory and may be off. Damage bonuses apply for Unarmed Combat. Figures with UC talent can do actual damage per the normal TFT hand damage rule. I allowed kicks to do more damage at the cost of a DX penalty (-3 DX and +1d as I recall). Cinematic kicks should do less additional damage and have a smaller DX adjustment. In the Real World, kicks are pretty much useless unless you surprise your opponent. While extremely powerful, they are far slower than punches. Short kicks to knees and shins are viable. But higher kicks are too slow. Since I simulated the movies, I ignored reality.

Armor - normal or magical - does NOT stop fisticuffs damage. After all, in movies everyone punches the face... I think I allowed Warrior and Veteran to absorb 1 point of damage (total). I'd allow big monsters to get armor protection - throwing a haymaker at a 7 hex dragon is likely to be ineffective.

Combination attacks - if an opponent takes enough damage to stun him (usually 5 points), the attacking figure can punch him again immediately. And again if he inflicts 5 points on his opponent. And again, etc.) With these, you could conceivable lay an opponent out in one turn.

Oh and I allowed figures with Acrobatics to attempt various spectacular moves.

The goal was to create a system that would allow barroom brawls to happen *quickly*. With punches doing 1d damage, fights are over pretty quick.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

Long ago, I went with a "cinematic" version of HTH fighting. ...

Fisticuffs does stun damage - i.e., fatigue damage that can be recovered quickly).

Hi Everyone, Ty.
Not subdual damage? Subdual damage is hitting with the flat of your blade to stun someone. The weapon does half damage, but you can't kill them (unless you roll a double or triple damage). The purpose is to knock people out.

Recovering from a bad beating in (say) 3 hours seems pretty fast.

In my campaign, subdual damage recovers four times faster than normal damage, and subdual damage recovers first.

Warm regards, Rick.

[DouglasCole]

Subdual Damage in general is a bit of a crock anyway. If you were hitting somebody hard enough to knock them out or cause impairment, you’re doing the same thing as hitting them with a stick, just without the lever arm and increased force. I understand the game mechanical reasons for it, but it’s not really a thing.Even the quick one punch knockout’s are knockouts because of brain trauma, not some sort of harmless off switch for people.

[Rick_Smith]

Hi all,
Some people suggest that 'Designer Notes' are included in the base set of the new TFT. First I would like to say that I LIKE Designer Notes. As a professional game designer, I enjoy seeing inside the head of fellow workers.

However, I would far rather any designer notes are a free download at Warehouse 23, for the following reasons: First it would drive traffic to W23 and that is a good thing. Second, I would much rather that the physical books include rules and not secondary material. Third, as a digital download, the Designer Notes can be as long as you want. If put into the rule book, they would have to be very short.

Moving atoms is expensive. The designer notes are perfectly useful as a digital download. I would prefer that the atoms in the TFT package are for things like counters, GM shields, and the like.

Warm regards, Rick.

[JLV]

I'm going to disagree with Rick on this one. I like hardcopy whenever I can get it. Oddly enough, it seems to last longer. However, having said that, I don't care much where it's put -- if it's a separate handout, fine. Back in the day, however, companies like the original SPI never counted it as part of the rules, nor did they apply some arbitrary page limit to their rules -- they were as long as they took, and "developer's" and "designer's" notes were simply added on to the back.

I sincerely hope the printing goal here is not based on some arbitrary page limit, because of which putting in Designer's Notes would somehow cause things that people need to play the game to be left out...

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Subdual Damage in general is a bit of a crock anyway. ...

Hi Douglas, everyone.
I have a talent called Koshing which allows you to 'kosh' someone (hit them on the head with a small sandbag) to knock them out. In the notes for this talent I specifically say that concussions do brain damage which can cause long term impairment. But this talent does a hollywood style kosh which does not cause any long term damage.

I actually agree with you about subdual damage. That said, I never worried about if the Subdual damage rules, on page 26 of Advanced Melee, were realistic. No harm was done to TFT by allowing non-lethal attacks. And bruises and muscle sprains will heal faster than broken bones and major cuts to tissue. People can beat up others deliberately trying not to break bones or cause deep cuts, of course.

The idea of subdual damage, nicely captures that idea.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Shostak]

I'll side wtith Rick. Spending money to put designer's notes on paper is probably not the best use of resources. I'd rather SJG put those resources toward materials that would keep TFT alive and in the market (not just GM screens and counters, though, but adventures, bestiaries, etc.)

[tbeard1999]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Hi Everyone, Ty.
Not subdual damage? Subdual damage is hitting with the flat of your blade to stun someone. The weapon does half damage, but you can't kill them (unless you roll a double or triple damage). The purpose is to knock people out.

Recovering from a bad beating in (say) 3 hours seems pretty fast.

In my campaign, subdual damage recovers four times faster than normal damage, and subdual damage recovers first.

Warm regards, Rick.

Well, remember that this is an explicitly cinematic system. Also, I failed to mention that I ran a lot of city adventures. So barroom brawls were much more common than one might expect. Stun worked okay; all you had to do was throw some water on someone’s face and they woke up and recovered most of their points. Hey, it worked in the movies...

That said, subdual damage would be a perfectly good substitute.

The main goal was to enable bar fights to actually be fun and interesting in TFT. As noted, armor and the low amount of bare handed damage made such fights boring. By bumping the damage up and eliminating armor, fights could be resolved with ~3-4 solid punches.

This also allowed the occasional “lets settle this like men” duels that didn’t use weapons.

[tbeard1999]

Agreed that designer’s notes are A Good Thing. I think Rick’s concern is that including them in the physical product might result in them being abbreviated for space considerations. If I have to choose, I’m like Rick - I’d much rather have extensive electronic designer’s notes than shorter, abbreviated printed ones.