Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-21-2011, 08:13 AM   #1
Randyman
 
Join Date: May 2009
Default [MH] Archer - variant Commando or variant Warrior?

Hypothetical build question - which Champions template would be the better base for an archer character? The Commando, replacing Gunslinger with Heroic Archer and Gun! with Bow!; or the Warrior, scaling Weapon Master back to Weapon Master (Bows) and replacing Blade! with Bow!

(Ideally, an MH Champion-class archer would have Bow!, Heroic Archer, and Weapon Master (Bow), although I haven't delved into any redundancies that would result.)
__________________
"Despite (GURPS) reputation for realism and popularity with simulationists, the numbers are and always have been assessed in the service of drama." - Kromm

"(GURPS) isn't a game but a toolkit for building games, and the GM needs to use it intelligently" - Kromm
Randyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2011, 08:38 AM   #2
Bruno
 
Bruno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Default Re: [MH] Archer - variant Commando or variant Warrior?

Archery requires strength, gunslinging doesn't - for that reason alone I'd suggest starting with Warrior, but consider allowing the character to swap Weapon Master (Bows) for Heroic Archer.

Impaling damage is singularly difficult to leverage against so many monster types that the Weapon Master per-die bonus is very attractive (as is the high ST on this template in general) but Weapon Master doesn't benefit the fast firing IIRC the way that Heroic Archer does, and being able to add the ACC and ignore bulk in close combat and shoot on the run means the archer isn't doomed when the zombies close to grapple, and gives him the mobility to avoid the zombies closing to grapple. Well, except fast zombies.

Although that's another good reason to use the Warrior as the base and take Weapon Master, as the Warrior Moves section of DF2 is particularly attractive. You might be able to fast-talk your GM into enabling Warrior Moves for Heroic Archers as well though.
__________________
All about Size Modifier; Unified Hit Location Table
A Wiki for my F2F Group
A neglected GURPS blog
Bruno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2011, 08:42 AM   #3
Bruno
 
Bruno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Default Re: [MH] Archer - variant Commando or variant Warrior?

Bow! may be a singularly bad deal, unless you're throwing in Fast-Draw Arrow AND Fast-Draw Bolt/harpoon, Crossbow, whatever skill spear-guns use, and being very generous about interpreting what you can use Bow! for just because you're doing it with a bow in your hands.

Gun! covers a swath of skills, bows only use one. That right there makes it awkward to use a ! skill for them. The Destiny point is nice, but you can buy quite a bit of Destiny if you just take Bow at 18 and put a point or two into some of those secondary helper skills, instead of using Bow! at 18. And that's a general purpose Destiny you're buying, not just a Bow! one.

I think at a minimum I'd throw in the effects of the Bow Fencing perk for free...
__________________
All about Size Modifier; Unified Hit Location Table
A Wiki for my F2F Group
A neglected GURPS blog
Bruno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2011, 08:52 AM   #4
Randyman
 
Join Date: May 2009
Default Re: [MH] Archer - variant Commando or variant Warrior?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
Bow! may be a singularly bad deal, unless you're throwing in Fast-Draw Arrow AND Fast-Draw Bolt/harpoon, Crossbow, whatever skill spear-guns use, and being very generous about interpreting what you can use Bow! for just because you're doing it with a bow in your hands.

Gun! covers a swath of skills, bows only use one. That right there makes it awkward to use a ! skill for them. The Destiny point is nice, but you can buy quite a bit of Destiny if you just take Bow at 18 and put a point or two into some of those secondary helper skills, instead of using Bow! at 18. And that's a general purpose Destiny you're buying, not just a Bow! one.

I think at a minimum I'd throw in the effects of the Bow Fencing perk for free...
There's probably a better name for the wildcard skill, definitely. I was using Bow! as a stand-in for "the analogue to Gun! that covers all muscle-powered ranged weapons"; having it cover bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons may be a bit of a stretch, though...
__________________
"Despite (GURPS) reputation for realism and popularity with simulationists, the numbers are and always have been assessed in the service of drama." - Kromm

"(GURPS) isn't a game but a toolkit for building games, and the GM needs to use it intelligently" - Kromm
Randyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2011, 10:13 AM   #5
Danukian
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: MI
Default Re: [MH] Archer - variant Commando or variant Warrior?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randyman View Post
There's probably a better name for the wildcard skill, definitely. I was using Bow! as a stand-in for "the analogue to Gun! that covers all muscle-powered ranged weapons"; having it cover bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons may be a bit of a stretch, though...
I would allow Archery! as a Bang! skill that covered Fast Draw, Speed Load, Bow, and Mounted Archery. It would still be less encompassing than Blade!
__________________
"My Dirty Girls on Bikes Calendar ends in December: it doesn't mean the world is going to end, it means it's time to order a new calendar!" ~Burt Chance
Danukian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2011, 10:49 AM   #6
Kuroshima
MIB
Pyramid Contributor
Mad Spaniard Rules Lawyer
 
Kuroshima's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: The ASS of the world, mainly Valencia, Spain (Europe)
Default Re: [MH] Archer - variant Commando or variant Warrior?

I would use the Warrior, really, as you're going to need the ST. IIRC correctly, it's ST 19 for 2d-1 thrust damage, that's the 17 from the Warrior +2 from Strongbow. Less than that, and weapon master isn't looking so hot anyway.

Bow!, I really see it as no different than other wildcards. I would give it the Bowfencer powerup from DF, and the Strongbow perk, both for free, once you've spent enough points spent in Bow! (DX+2?), and allow it to replace Acrobatics/Climbing/etc while holding a bow and doing movie Legolas kind of things. Remember, all guns default to one another, usually at -2, but at worst at -4. Sure, it includes crossbows, beam weapons and what not, but Guns!, by default, is a terrible deal already, and Bow! is not much worse.
__________________
Antoni Ten
MIB3119
My GURPs character sheet
My stuff on e23
Kuroshima is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2011, 11:41 AM   #7
PK
 
PK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dobbstown Sane Asylum
Default Re: [MH] Archer - variant Commando or variant Warrior?

Definitely start with the warrior; you want the ST-based build there. Here's how I'd approach it. You seem to want to focus heavily on bows and crossbows, instead of muscle-powered ranged weapons in general, so I think the solution is to invent an Archer! skill that's worth it.

NOTE: This is all very much off the top of my head, so if anything seems like an error or a balance issue, it probably is. :)

Archer Lens:

1. Replace Weapon Master (All) with Weapon Master (Bow and Crossbow) [25] and Heroic Archer [20].
2. Replace Blade! with Archer! (see below).
3. Replace the 6-point ranged-attack package with "One of Thrown Weapon (any) (E) DX+1 [2]-15; Bolas, Lasso, or Throwing, all (A) DX [2]-14; or Net (H) DX-1 [2]-13."
4. In secondary skills, change the first choice list to "Three of Axe/Mace, Staff..." (instead of two) and add bladed skills like Broadsword, Shortsword, etc., to the options.

Archer! (DX)

Bows and crossbows are like an extension of your body, mind, and soul. You can use this skill to fire any such weapon, replacing Bow, Crossbow, and even Artillery and Gunner skills to use ballistae, scorpions, etc. (Note that, from this point on, the term "bow" is used to refer to any handheld bow or crossbow weapon.) If you know this skill at DX+1 or better, replace your ST with your ST-based Archer! for all purposes when using a bow. You may also use IQ-based Archer! to replace Zen Marksmanship (but no other cinematic skills) if you have either Heroic Archer or a Weapon Master that includes bows.

You may roll against Archer! in place of Acrobatics, Dancing, Jumping, etc., to move while using your bow, to retain your weapon when being disarmed, or to replace any general DX roll the GM calls for involving your weapon. Archer! includes ammo handling as well; you may use it to replace Fast-Draw (Arrow), any DX roll to retain or pick up an arrow/bolt, and in place of Knife to stab someone with an arrow/bolt.

An IQ-based roll allows you to do things comparable to Gun! skill -- from identifying where an arrow was made based on the wood and fletching (Connoisseur) to knowing exactly where on an electrical box to shoot to knock out power to a place (Electrician). As well, you have an archer's eyes -- while shooting or aiming your bow, you may replace any Perception or Observation roll made to acquire a target, notice something wrong, hear someone sneaking up on you from behind, etc., with a Per-based Archer! roll.
__________________
Reverend Pee Kitty of the Order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Twitter) (LJ)

MyGURPS: My house rules and GURPS resources.

#SJGamesLive: I answered questions about GURPS After the End and more!
{Watch Video} - {Read Transcript}
PK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2011, 11:50 AM   #8
Randyman
 
Join Date: May 2009
Default Re: [MH] Archer - variant Commando or variant Warrior?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
Definitely start with the warrior; you want the ST-based build there. Here's how I'd approach it. You seem to want to focus heavily on bows and crossbows, instead of muscle-powered ranged weapons in general, so I think the solution is to invent an Archer! skill that's worth it.

NOTE: This is all very much off the top of my head, so if anything seems like an error or a balance issue, it probably is. :)

<snip much goodness>
So, if I wanted the classic "all muscle-powered ranged weapons" character... (just for discussion's sake, mind you... :) )

[For context, I'm a huge fan of the current Young Justice cartoon. Despite the setting being explicitly supers rather than monster hunting, the framework of the show bears a lot of resemblance to the latter. Some of the characters fit rather easily into the MH templates, conceptually at least; others require a bit of tweaking. Such as Red Arrow and Artemis, although they are arguably "bow/crossbow" rather than "all ranged".]
__________________
"Despite (GURPS) reputation for realism and popularity with simulationists, the numbers are and always have been assessed in the service of drama." - Kromm

"(GURPS) isn't a game but a toolkit for building games, and the GM needs to use it intelligently" - Kromm
Randyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2011, 12:03 PM   #9
PK
 
PK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dobbstown Sane Asylum
Default Re: [MH] Archer - variant Commando or variant Warrior?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randyman View Post
So, if I wanted the classic "all muscle-powered ranged weapons" character... (just for discussion's sake, mind you... :) )
Then I'd change the Wildcard skill to Bullseye! and redefine it so it provides more reasonable (i.e., toned-down) benefits, but to every muscle-powered ranged weapon skill. Get rid of the ST bonus, the Zen Marksmanship, the "replaces Per and Observation" bit, etc., but then expand it to cover Bolas, Net, Throwing, Thrown Weapon, etc.

You'd also need to monkey with the Weapon Master angle -- I'd probably replace it with something like, "Spend 45 points on some combination of Heroic Archer [20] and Weapon Master [Varies]; use leftover points to buy further general advantages." That gives you versatility.
__________________
Reverend Pee Kitty of the Order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Twitter) (LJ)

MyGURPS: My house rules and GURPS resources.

#SJGamesLive: I answered questions about GURPS After the End and more!
{Watch Video} - {Read Transcript}
PK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2011, 12:10 PM   #10
Randyman
 
Join Date: May 2009
Default Re: [MH] Archer - variant Commando or variant Warrior?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
Then I'd change the Wildcard skill to Bullseye! and redefine it so it provides more reasonable (i.e., toned-down) benefits, but to every muscle-powered ranged weapon skill. Get rid of the ST bonus, the Zen Marksmanship, the "replaces Per and Observation" bit, etc., but then expand it to cover Bolas, Net, Throwing, Thrown Weapon, etc.

You'd also need to monkey with the Weapon Master angle -- I'd probably replace it with something like, "Spend 45 points on some combination of Heroic Archer [20] and Weapon Master [Varies]; use leftover points to buy further general advantages." That gives you versatility.
Excellent! Thanks!
__________________
"Despite (GURPS) reputation for realism and popularity with simulationists, the numbers are and always have been assessed in the service of drama." - Kromm

"(GURPS) isn't a game but a toolkit for building games, and the GM needs to use it intelligently" - Kromm
Randyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
heroic archer, monster hunters, weapon master

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.