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Old 04-30-2011, 10:32 AM   #21
Not another shrubbery
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty
If you're using psi, magic, etc., to make someone sacrifice his FP or HP, he's not "willing." Willing means, "Done, borne, or accepted by choice or without reluctance." The "choice" part is rather important there. If you'll forgive the harsh analogy, Mind Control and similar effects don't produce a "willing" subject any more than date-rape drugs produce a "willing" participant.

Rogue witches can certainly enslave people and sacrifice them, but they have to do it the old-fashioned way (murder) using the Unwilling Sacrifice rules from MH3.

Coercion is okay, because the person is still making the choice. "Help me or I'll kill your wife," is a valid threat, because he could choose to let his wife die. But Mind Control takes away that choice completely -- he's not making the sacrifice, you are making it on his behalf.
To remove all doubt, I would think that you should just rule that coerced subjects all count as "unwilling".
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:39 AM   #22
vitruvian
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
To remove all doubt, I would think that you should just rule that coerced subjects all count as "unwilling".
Not when there seems to be confusion about what 'normal' coercion includes. Leaving it at banning the use of magic and psi and similar supernormal abilities to mind control people into being used for sacrifices is probably sufficient.

Although I suppose the GM would be justified in saying that the state of mind of an NPC who's subject to threats (to themselves or others) to force compliance can 'color' the energy granted, such that it's treated like 'quirked' accumulated energy at best, and may make a critical failure more likely at worst. After all, even if they feel they have no choice but to let the caster drain their energy, their feelings towards the caster are not going to be exactly positive, and it wouldn't be surprising if they were hoping at some level for something extremely nasty to happen to the bastard threatening them.
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:41 AM   #23
Sunrunners_Fire
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
To remove all doubt, I would think that you should just rule that coerced subjects all count as "unwilling".
But he states that coercion doesn't invalidate their ability to choose, and so doesn't invalidate their choice to be willing. If you indicate that coercion invalidates their choice to be willing, as there is not a human who has made a non-coerced choice in the history of the species ... You should emove the ability to use willing sacrifices, even from, especially from, the witch itself. And remove the ability to not resist a spell you desire the effects of as well.

Either choice is valid, or choice is not valid. There is no such thing as a choice that isn't subjected to one form of coercion or another.

Mind control replaces your ability to choose with the controller's ability to choose for you, and so fails the "willing sacrifice" test because the sacrifice isn't the one making the choice. :)
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:46 AM   #24
Novembermike
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
Not when there seems to be confusion about what 'normal' coercion includes. Leaving it at banning the use of magic and psi and similar supernormal abilities to mind control people into being used for sacrifices is probably sufficient.
You could probably have the rational be that magical coercion is never perfect and can cause mental conflict that keeps it from being effective for something like this. Essentially, the victim is incapable of making the deep commitment necessary. Someone that has been coerced can lie and not actually commit, but he's capable of committing.
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Old 04-30-2011, 11:40 AM   #25
Not another shrubbery
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by vitruvian
Not when there seems to be confusion about what 'normal' coercion includes.
I meant coercion in the legal sense, which is what Rev seemed to be talking about... "Help me or I'll kill your wife".
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Old 04-30-2011, 11:48 AM   #26
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire
But he states that coercion doesn't invalidate their ability to choose, and so doesn't invalidate their choice to be willing. If you indicate that coercion invalidates their choice to be willing, as there is not a human who has made a non-coerced choice in the history of the species ... You should emove the ability to use willing sacrifices, even from, especially from, the witch itself. And remove the ability to not resist a spell you desire the effects of as well.
I explained my use of the word coercion above, as the legal sense, the same way Rev's quoted example seems to mean it.

An analogous example of "willing" might be... "Help me. Your wife can help too, if she wants."
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Old 04-30-2011, 11:51 AM   #27
Sunrunners_Fire
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
I explained my use of the word coercion above, as the legal sense, the same way Rev's quoted example seems to mean it.

An analogous example of "willing" might be... "Help me. Your wife can help too, if she wants."
Then you also noted that he is specifically calling that out as a valid method of satisfying the requirement that they be "willing", right? And not in any way implying that coercion invalidates their choice?
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Old 04-30-2011, 12:04 PM   #28
vitruvian
 
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
as there is not a human who has made a non-coerced choice in the history of the species
Sure there has, unless you're using a non-standard definition of coercion. Many, many choices are made every day that are not made under threat of force or other measure to ensure compliance.
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Old 04-30-2011, 12:08 PM   #29
Sunrunners_Fire
 
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
Sure there has, unless you're using a non-standard definition of coercion. Many, many choices are made every day that are not made under threat of force or other measure to ensure compliance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coercion
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/coercion
http://www.answers.com/topic/coercion
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coercion

Wikipedia appears to have the most thorough definition:
Quote:
Coercion (pronounced /koʊˈɜrʃən/) is the practice of forcing another party to behave in an involuntary manner (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats, rewards, or intimidation or some other form of pressure or force. In law, coercion is codified as the duress crime. Such actions are used as leverage, to force the victim to act in the desired way. Coercion may involve the actual infliction of physical pain/injury or psychological harm in order to enhance the credibility of a threat. The threat of further harm may lead to the cooperation or obedience of the person being coerced. Torture is one of the most extreme examples of coercion i.e. severe pain is inflicted until the victim provides the desired information.
There has never been a human choice made without that choice being subjected to some form of threat, reward, intimidation, pressure or force.
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Old 04-30-2011, 12:15 PM   #30
RyanW
 
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by Michael Cule View Post
You have to have a clear idea in your head how the effect works.
But, interestingly, you don't have to have a clear idea of why the spell is necessary.

Which means "this spell will strike down those who are after us" is okay, even if the assistant thinks the people are after them to oppress their religion, rather than to arrest the cult leader for drug trafficking.
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