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Old 08-04-2010, 07:20 AM   #31
davidtmoore
 
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Default Re: Weapon Master Broadsword?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I think I've laid out the evidence against that interpretation sufficiently up-thread.

Until fairly recently I would have taken the same view, but I don't think the material adds up that way.
Because it's impossible that any published product could have made an error? :)

It's true that DF gives Weapon Master (Bow), and in fact the bow styles in Martial Arts also give Weapon Master (Bow). But then, Iaijutsu in MA gives Weapon Master (Katana) rather than Weapon Master (Broadsword), and notes that WM (Katana) works for both the Broadsword and Two-Handed Sword skills when using the Katana.

To be fair, the jump from single-weapon to small-class-of-weapons is only 10 points. It's probably safest to just pony up the points where it seems appropriate.
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Old 08-04-2010, 09:23 AM   #32
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Default Re: Weapon Master Broadsword?

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Originally Posted by Jeminai View Post
A person that uses a scimitar and has Weapon Master is NOT a weapon master with a cavalry saber or a viking broadsword even though all three weapons use the same skill to wield?
Below is how I'd do in my game if I were the GM. As always, your mileage may vary.

According to Martial Arts (p. 223), the word "scimitar" is "a blanket term for a curved, one-handed slashing sword from Eastern Europe, Turkey, the Middle East, or South Asia". It can mean any one of Shortsword, Cavalry Saber, Thrusting Broadsword, Falchion, and Large Falchion. You can pick one specific entry from these five, like Weapon Master (Cavalry Saber) [20], Weapon Master (Large Falchion) [20], etc. There's no such advantage as "Weapon Master (Specific Weapon: Scimitar) [20]" because "scimitar" is not specific. If you have a mastery over every weapon called "scimitar" regardless of which of the five entries it's classified into, it's Weapon Master (Small Class: All Scimitars) [30].
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Old 08-04-2010, 09:39 AM   #33
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Default Re: Weapon Master Broadsword?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Note that 'by weapon' definitely does not mean 'by weapon table entry' in all cases. In addition to the rules faults this would imply, there's Word of Kromm on it relating to Form Mastery.
Right, but do bear in mind that if A=B for Form Mastery, that doesn't automatically mean A=B for Weapon Master. Different advantages can certainly have different interpretations.

Weapon Master is by weapon. That doesn't necessarily mean "weapon table entry," but only because some weapons have multiple entries. For example, the Katana has two (two-line) entries, one for Broadsword and one for Two-Handed Sword, and Weapon Master (Katana) covers both. Weapon Master (Katana) does not cover use of the Cutlass or Greatsword.

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Two reasons that makes no sense:
-There is no weapon entry for 'Bow'. So Weapon Master (Bow) cannot refer to a single weapon entry.
-I can't really see the DF Scout being effectively forbidden from using composite bows.
DF is a distillation. The assumption that you can blithely take anything written in a DF book and port it over into GURPS as a whole is a very bad assumption. Don't make it. DF takes shortcuts like crazy -- it's expressly intended as a worked example. Think of DF1 as the document that a GM gives to his players showing them what kinds of templates they can choose from and what gear they can buy -- including a few spots where the GM intentionally simplified or even "dumbed-down" a rule to make it work.

In this case, Weapon Master (Bow) assumes that the scout is probably only going to ever use one bow. He'll pick up a Very Fine one as Signature Gear and use the heck out of it. So it's really shorthand for "Weapon Master (The bow that you decide to use)". And if the scout happens to pick up and use a different bow, then yeah, the scout's player is probably going to assume that he'll get his damage bonus with said bow, and the GM should let that happen, but that's a special case being made for DF, to keep things as simple as possible. It's the equivalent of a GM call, only one being made by Kromm to help the GM ahead of time. It certainly doesn't mean that "All bows" is now a 20-point class in all GURPS games everywhere.

DF intentionally bends, twists, or simply rewrites certain rules to better fit cinematic dungeon crawling. Bear that in mind when basing a decision on it or citing it to support an argument.
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Old 08-04-2010, 09:53 AM   #34
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Default Re: Weapon Master Broadsword?

Ok, that does clarify a lot. But...the basic set examples are problematic, then. Specifically:
-Two weapon WM: Broadsword and Shield. Which of the 8 (or more) kinds of shield? No Thrusting Broadsword?
-Knightly WM: ditto, plus no light mace?

And, uh, iconic character Iotha has Weapon Master (Bow) for 20 points.
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Old 08-04-2010, 10:00 AM   #35
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Default Re: Weapon Master Broadsword?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Ok, that does clarify a lot. But...the basic set examples are problematic, then. Specifically:
-Two weapon WM: Broadsword and Shield. Which of the 8 (or more) kinds of shield? No Thrusting Broadsword?
Shield only has one entry on the weapon table. Well, two if you count the "with spike" line, but that's just a modification. Same for Broadsword versus Thrusting Broadsword -- that's considered a modification as well. (This is another reason I didn't go with the "one weapon entry" explanation -- it's not 100% accurate.) As always, the GM decides when something goes past "modified version" and into "totally new weapon."

Quote:
And, uh, iconic character Iotha has Weapon Master (Bow) for 20 points.
Heh, so she does. Oops?
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Old 08-04-2010, 10:02 AM   #36
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Default Re: Weapon Master Broadsword?

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Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
Shield only has one entry on the weapon table. Well, two if you count the "with spike" line, but that's just a modification. Same for Broadsword versus Thrusting Broadsword -- that's considered a modification as well. (This is another reason I didn't go with the "one weapon entry" explanation -- it's not 100% accurate.) As always, the GM decides when something goes past "modified version" and into "totally new weapon."


Heh, so she does. Oops?
I'd say that Bows for 30 points is overpriced. One bow, the Composite Bow, is just better in all ways. So any serious Weapon Master (Bow) will be using those and the ability to use any lesser bows found around isn't worth any more than the ability of the Weapon Master (Broadsword) to use bronze broadswords, Cheap broadswords and so forth.
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Old 08-04-2010, 10:18 AM   #37
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Default Re: Weapon Master Broadsword?

What I said here still applies. The essential bit: Minor variations in size, number of edges, and so on don't matter. Weapon Master (Foo) encompasses anything with "foo" in the name. So Weapon Master (Broadsword) includes anything named "broadsword" for just 20 points. As a GM, I'd also include any balanced, Reach 1 weapon capable of swing cutting damage that's covered by the Broadsword skill: cavalry saber, backsword, etc.

And yes, for 20 points, you can have Weapon Master (Bow) that covers the longbow, regular bow, short bow, and composite bow. All are two-handed missile weapons with "bow" in their name, made from strung, curved staves and normally shooting arrows for impaling damage.
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Old 08-04-2010, 10:32 AM   #38
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Default Re: Weapon Master Broadsword?

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
What I said here still applies. The essential bit: Minor variations in size, number of edges, and so on don't matter. Weapon Master (Foo) encompasses anything with "foo" in the name. So Weapon Master (Broadsword) includes anything named "broadsword" for just 20 points. [...]

And yes, for 20 points, you can have Weapon Master (Bow) that covers the longbow, regular bow, short bow, and composite bow. All are two-handed missile weapons with "bow" in their name, made from strung, curved staves and normally shooting arrows for impaling damage.
It seems to me that if that was the intention, it could have been stated a good deal more clearly. The line editor ought to know, but if a player had come up to me saying that 'one weapon' could mean anything with 'bow' in its name, I would have said he was stretching things a great deal- and probably trying to sneak one by me.

Also, what if I want to be a master of actually one weapon? Should Weapon Master: Shortbow be worth any less? If so, how much, if not, why not?
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Old 08-04-2010, 10:36 AM   #39
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Default Re: Weapon Master Broadsword?

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Originally Posted by newtkeeper View Post
It seems to me that if that was the intention, it could have been stated a good deal more clearly. The line editor ought to know, but if a player had come up to me saying that 'one weapon' could mean anything with 'bow' in its name, I would have said he was stretching things a great deal- and probably trying to sneak one by me.

Also, what if I want to be a master of actually one weapon? Should Weapon Master: Shortbow be worth any less? If so, how much, if not, why not?
Weapon Master (My Father's Shortbow) would be 15 points, according to Kromm.

Pentaphilia probably prevents there being an intermediate step between these two.
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:04 AM   #40
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Default Re: Weapon Master Broadsword?

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Originally Posted by blacksmith View Post
Hastily carved could make is say a cheaply balanced staff wielded with the twohanded sword skill.
Why assume it was wielded with two-handed sword skill? If the legends are accurate, Musashi used a quarterstaff in his first duel with a samurai, not a sword.

IMO, if any historical figure should have the full-blown 'every weapon' version of Weapon Mastery, Musashi's one of them.
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