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Old 09-30-2014, 12:28 AM   #21
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Default Re: [Banestorm - Abydos] A Lazarite mass

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Originally Posted by Seraphim View Post
Depending on how Eastern Christian you want to play Abydos, most of this wouldn't be possible. The Orthodox don't use wafers at Communion nor do we use Eucharistic ministers. Instead, it's leavened bread mixed with the wine and hot water in a chalice, which is given out to the communicants via a spoon by the bishop, priest, or in rarely, the deacon.
Shows what I know about Orthodox, but I think the idea can be adapted to that.

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I honestly think undead would only be used for cleaning, at best, especially since they are referred to as being servants and slaves in the book. Serving in the temple is considered to be an honor that wouldn't be given to just any human, let alone a lumbering undead. Ideally, anyone serving in any liturgical function should be tonsured a cleric (this does not involve the western style tonsure) and ordained to that rank, even if only minor clergy. I'm not sure you could ordain a soulless zombie.
It's important to distinguish between soulless/mindless zombies and sentient vampires and liches here, as I was attempting to do in my last post. The mindless shamblers do the drudge work, but sentient undead are explicitly allowed to serve the church, and the vampires even have their own monastic order. I'll find page references after work if nobody beats me to it.
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Old 09-30-2014, 08:53 AM   #22
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Default Re: [Banestorm - Abydos] A Lazarite mass

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Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc View Post
It's important to distinguish between soulless/mindless zombies and sentient vampires and liches here, as I was attempting to do in my last post. The mindless shamblers do the drudge work, but sentient undead are explicitly allowed to serve the church, and the vampires even have their own monastic order. I'll find page references after work if nobody beats me to it.
Not that I can actually make use of the reference number, but it would be nice. Having not read the material myself I cannot be sure, but even allowing for the Lazarite view that the undead are somehow "God's plan" for what to do with the physical remains of believers into eternity (ignoring or creatively interpreting the Scripture that at the very least makes such an interpretation highly suspect)... wouldn't being a lich, vampire, etc. be as bad or an even worse abomination? Or for Banestorm are such being still considered "different" from when they were alive? One's eternal soul or spirit or what have you is still supposed to go with God and the undead are okay because it is just efficient use of the "empties"... or am I horribly misunderstanding the Lazarite views?
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Old 09-30-2014, 10:08 AM   #23
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Default Re: [Banestorm - Abydos] A Lazarite mass

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Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc View Post
It's important to distinguish between soulless/mindless zombies and sentient vampires and liches here, as I was attempting to do in my last post. The mindless shamblers do the drudge work, but sentient undead are explicitly allowed to serve the church, and the vampires even have their own monastic order. I'll find page references after work if nobody beats me to it.
I just skimmed through the book again and there doesn't appear to be many references to liches. I would think if necromantic studies were encouraged for the clergy you'd see at least a bishop or two who have turned themselves.

The only reference I could find to non-human clergy was Nikodorus, founder of the Order of the Holy Blood (pg. 23). He was already a priest when he was unwillingly turned, though. Their creed implies that touching the cross is painful to them, so the idea that they could get anywhere near the Holy Mysteries seems unthinkable to me. The cross thing is a little strange since it doesn't seem to be reflected on the Banestorm Vampire template, as they only have Dread to running water and are vulnerable to True Faith.
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Old 09-30-2014, 03:43 PM   #24
Harry O'Gane
 
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Default Re: [Banestorm - Abydos] A Lazarite mass

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Originally Posted by Seraphim View Post
I just skimmed through the book again and there doesn't appear to be many references to liches. I would think if necromantic studies were encouraged for the clergy you'd see at least a bishop or two who have turned themselves.

The only reference I could find to non-human clergy was Nikodorus, founder of the Order of the Holy Blood (pg. 23). He was already a priest when he was unwillingly turned, though. Their creed implies that touching the cross is painful to them, so the idea that they could get anywhere near the Holy Mysteries seems unthinkable to me. The cross thing is a little strange since it doesn't seem to be reflected on the Banestorm Vampire template, as they only have Dread to running water and are vulnerable to True Faith.
No liches as far as I know. Most "high"-ranked clergy members use Steal Youth to maintain their existence on Yrth, and 99% of their victims are slaves, which are pretty legal in Abydos, but not as abundant since the undead are much cheaper to maintain.

All in all, I wish to tank everyone for the input, I REALLY like this idea with fields and weeding, so I won't use the mass as the main projection of "undead normality". I'll probably use undead as crew members on a ship who do the dirty work below the deck and similar things.

However, another question:

Abydos supplement has it mentioned that when a person dies, they generally stay in church perimeters before the bishop decides whether the person should be resurrected, buried or raised as an undead.

How to model this ceremony of decision, and how to model the ceremony of resurrection? In other words, how would a priest act, if we take into consideration that the priests are going to be heavily Eastern influenced like Seraphim described? Would there be a whole sacrament ordeal or a couple of prayers? Also picking up ideas, so every kind of input is more than welcome.
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Old 09-30-2014, 04:03 PM   #25
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Default Re: [Banestorm - Abydos] A Lazarite mass

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How to model this ceremony of decision, and how to model the ceremony of resurrection? In other words, how would a priest act, if we take into consideration that the priests are going to be heavily Eastern influenced like Seraphim described? Would there be a whole sacrament ordeal or a couple of prayers? Also picking up ideas, so every kind of input is more than welcome.
My reading of the text implies that they see magic, specifically necromancy, as a useful skill and not as sacramental. That being the case, I don't think there would be any sacramental dimension to the process of deciding or making a new undead.

Ideally, there would be prayers done just before death, at death, and just after death for the soul of the newly reposed. There will probably be a funeral for them, even if the body is going to be turned undead. It would finish with the funeral in the church, but instead of a burial service the body might be taken to a magical chamber for re-animation.

It sounds to me like it's really more of a practical choice on who gets zombified instead of a spiritual choice. A magical resurrection, on the other hand, now that would be a big church ordeal. They would probably have to invent whole new services of petitions asking God to give the soul back, etc. Eastern services are already long to begin with, I'm willing to bet that a magical resurrection would be almost unbearably long.
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Old 09-30-2014, 04:47 PM   #26
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Default Re: [Banestorm - Abydos] A Lazarite mass

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My reading of the text implies that they see magic, specifically necromancy, as a useful skill and not as sacramental. That being the case, I don't think there would be any sacramental dimension to the process of deciding or making a new undead.
Though it is so often ignored as to seem abnormal, Christianity in general is about seeking God's will; perhaps it is the height of folly but I would assume that applied to Eastern Orthodox believers as well and thus might apply even to the Lazarites, even if they are indeed heretics (or you decide that Christianity itself is fundamentally wrong). That is to say the goal is to be so in tune with God's will that you naturally go along with it on "the small stuff" and you readily seek His guidance on the large stuff.

Plus even if they or Christianity at large is "false" in the setting, something else might still answer those prayers.

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Originally Posted by Seraphim View Post
Ideally, there would be prayers done just before death, at death, and just after death for the soul of the newly reposed. There will probably be a funeral for them, even if the body is going to be turned undead. It would finish with the funeral in the church, but instead of a burial service the body might be taken to a magical chamber for re-animation.

It sounds to me like it's really more of a practical choice on who gets zombified instead of a spiritual choice. A magical resurrection, on the other hand, now that would be a big church ordeal. They would probably have to invent whole new services of petitions asking God to give the soul back, etc. Eastern services are already long to begin with, I'm willing to bet that a magical resurrection would be almost unbearably long.
This on the other hand seems like a good approach. I will add that zombification and perhaps resurrection will still contain "practical" elements as well... it is just that if you believe in an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omniperfectus being it is kind of silly to do anything without seeking His input. ;)
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Old 09-30-2014, 06:05 PM   #27
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Default Re: [Banestorm - Abydos] A Lazarite mass

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Though it is so often ignored as to seem abnormal, Christianity in general is about seeking God's will; perhaps it is the height of folly but I would assume that applied to Eastern Orthodox believers as well and thus might apply even to the Lazarites, even if they are indeed heretics (or you decide that Christianity itself is fundamentally wrong). That is to say the goal is to be so in tune with God's will that you naturally go along with it on "the small stuff" and you readily seek His guidance on the large stuff.

Plus even if they or Christianity at large is "false" in the setting, something else might still answer those prayers.



This on the other hand seems like a good approach. I will add that zombification and perhaps resurrection will still contain "practical" elements as well... it is just that if you believe in an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omniperfectus being it is kind of silly to do anything without seeking His input. ;)
Yes, I agree that the Lazarites would probably pray for guidance regularly and would pray for guidance concerning their necromantic practices, especially since many of their mages are priests. What I would contend is that necromancy is not a sacrament as it does not pertain to the salvation of the human person. The religious aspect of selecting a corpse for reanimation or for the actual spell itself might only be a simple prayer asking for a blessing at the beginning of the work or perhaps prayers mixed in with the magical activity as opposed to being a full-on liturgical act. We don't have a service for hiring construction workers to repair a church building, but it's very common for a blessing to be performed for the actual work itself.
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Old 09-30-2014, 07:19 PM   #28
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Default Re: [Banestorm - Abydos] A Lazarite mass

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The only reference I could find to non-human clergy was Nikodorus, founder of the Order of the Holy Blood (pg. 23). He was already a priest when he was unwillingly turned, though. Their creed implies that touching the cross is painful to them, so the idea that they could get anywhere near the Holy Mysteries seems unthinkable to me. The cross thing is a little strange since it doesn't seem to be reflected on the Banestorm Vampire template, as they only have Dread to running water and are vulnerable to True Faith.
The cross thing fits with my vague impression of the Yrth setting, which is that religion is purely a social force with no metaphysical reality behind it. Thus if Vampires or other supernatural beings have any reaction to holy symbols it'd be due to psychology rather than any real effect. In essence a Phobia or Delusion or something along those lines.
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Old 09-30-2014, 07:42 PM   #29
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Default Re: [Banestorm - Abydos] A Lazarite mass

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Yes, I agree that the Lazarites would probably pray for guidance regularly and would pray for guidance concerning their necromantic practices, especially since many of their mages are priests. What I would contend is that necromancy is not a sacrament as it does not pertain to the salvation of the human person. The religious aspect of selecting a corpse for reanimation or for the actual spell itself might only be a simple prayer asking for a blessing at the beginning of the work or perhaps prayers mixed in with the magical activity as opposed to being a full-on liturgical act. We don't have a service for hiring construction workers to repair a church building, but it's very common for a blessing to be performed for the actual work itself.
I didn't mean to imply such a thing... though candle lit vigils and the like do happen and Ritual Casting of spells do make sense. My own experience with Christianity is from less format denominations, so I didn't mean to imply...

...actually church meetings were common for discussing building projects, so now you've got me confused. XD
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Old 09-30-2014, 09:09 PM   #30
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Default Re: [Banestorm - Abydos] A Lazarite mass

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The cross thing fits with my vague impression of the Yrth setting, which is that religion is purely a social force with no metaphysical reality behind it. Thus if Vampires or other supernatural beings have any reaction to holy symbols it'd be due to psychology rather than any real effect. In essence a Phobia or Delusion or something along those lines.
I never got the vibe that religion was only social in the Banestorm setting. The book does have a side box on page 56 that states that miracles do occur, so that implies some form of metaphysical reality. It also states that vampires are vulnerable to True Faith, so that should imply something.

Maybe it's just me.

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I didn't mean to imply such a thing... though candle lit vigils and the like do happen and Ritual Casting of spells do make sense. My own experience with Christianity is from less format denominations, so I didn't mean to imply...

...actually church meetings were common for discussing building projects, so now you've got me confused. XD
Yeah, what I was ultimately getting at was that any necromancy would probably be done outside of a temple itself. I'm sure they work in prayers when they work their horrible black magics.

That's an interesting thought, with non-liturgical forms of Christianity. What then becomes the difference between a church service meeting and a meeting for a service to the church? I wonder if there would be a Protestant low-church version of the Lazarites.
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