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Old 10-27-2013, 09:22 PM   #1
Cato the Elder
 
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Default Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.

Having found, and being greatly intrigued by, Douglas Cole's Rescaling Melee Weapons post, I plan on using it for my own campaign (a more-or-less strictly historical game set in thirteenth century Europe) alongside the revamped rules for ranged weapons in The Deadly Spring. I am uncertain how to calculate the damage for couched lances, however.

Using the Basic Set, a ST 22 cavalry horse at medium encumbrance (a 160 pound man wearing armour) will charge on level ground at Move 8, resulting in 1d+3 impaling damage for a war lance. If Mr. Cole's rules are used, the lance will also get an armour divisor of 2, which means that a successful strike with a couched lance will result in a ferocious wound regardless of any armour worn. While that result seems appropriate to me, I am interested to know whether another calculation might be more realistic. Thank you in advance for your replies.
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Old 10-27-2013, 09:44 PM   #2
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Default Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.

Realistically the damage from couched lances has nothing to do with the weight of the horse or rider. It should be based on the ST of the rider just like all other weapons.
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Old 10-27-2013, 10:15 PM   #3
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Default Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.

Would you propose substituting the rider's ST for the mount's in the Basic Set calculations then?
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:00 AM   #4
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Default Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
Realistically the damage from couched lances has nothing to do with the weight of the horse or rider. It should be based on the ST of the rider just like all other weapons.
Why do you say that? Isn't it essentially an impaling ramming attack?
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:15 AM   #5
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Default Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.

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Originally Posted by Cato the Elder View Post
Would you propose substituting the rider's ST for the mount's in the Basic Set calculations then?
Absolutely
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:16 AM   #6
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Default Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.

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Originally Posted by Loukas View Post
Why do you say that? Isn't it essentially an impaling ramming attack?
http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/shock.php
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:21 AM   #7
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Default Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.

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Realistically the damage from couched lances has nothing to do with the weight of the horse or rider.
That's dependent on equipment design. Damage is mostly determined by the weakest link. That tends to be the attacker's grip on the weapon, but a lance rest could take up the force (entirely not addressed in your link), making grip strength relatively unimportant, at which point the next weakest link is the attacker's seat (which will depend on the weight of the rider). A saddle in turn can be designed to hold the rider in place, in which case your weakest link is probably either the saddle or the lance, but at a certain point can be the horse. To what degree these technologies were actually used in war I don't know, but it's certainly theoretically possible.
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Old 10-28-2013, 06:31 AM   #8
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Default Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
Absolutely
I think the problem is the Horse ST and the rider's ST are doing different things here.

The Horse's is being used to create momentum, and the rider's is being used to plant the lance. Obviously the latter is more directly involved, but the former isn't uninvolved.

That article does well when talking about stirrups and proper saddles, and does well making the point that man and horse aren't a continuous muscle. But I think the article doesn't support the assertion that the horse ST would be irrelevant.

Citing personal experience in the C21st of jousting is all very well, but I'll need some figures before I start discounting a half tonne animal from the system.

As Anthony says this is a system, with all that entails, weak points, transmission of energy etc, etc. It's going to complex obviously.

Part of the issue is a lance impact is counted a slam with pointy bit on the end, rather than as a usual weapon attack so if you replace mounts ST with the Rider's you get some odd results. Using the example on pg397

Horse ST25 Move 8, lance +3 imp does (25x8)/100 does 2d6+3 imp

say the rider has ST12 that becomes 1d6+3imp*, he actually does the same or slightly better using a 2h spear (and skill) travelling at the same speed.

*actually strictly speaking RAW it becomes zero (0.96 rounds down to 0) but that's a bit harsh!


Issue of not using the riders ST is obviously you can have weak riders doing the same damage as stronger ones. But the Lance's min ST is 12, so a weak rider won't be able to control the blow. For me that buys into my perception that that riders ST and skill is about partly channelling as well as reinforcing the system to target.

Maybe a compromise solution would be instead of either the Mounts ST or the Rider's ST it should be average ST with a bonus to that avg ST of +1 per point the riders ST exceeds min St for the lance

so taking the above example that would be: ST25(mount)+ST12(rider)/2 = avg St19

Damage would be (ST19xMv8)/100 = 1.52 or 2d6-3**, +3imp from Lance so 2d6 imp.

But if the rider was ST14 it would be avg St 20 +2 = 22, (22x8)/100 = 1.76 or 2d6-1**, +3imp from Lance so 2d6+2 imp.


**using the rules for calculating fractional dice damage in HT rather than just rounding down.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 10-28-2013 at 08:00 AM.
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Old 10-28-2013, 07:14 AM   #9
Loukas
 
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Default Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.

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The author may be right that he fears a big man on a little horse more than a little man on a big horse, but by your extreme suggestion, a big man without a horse at all is just as fearsome!
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Old 10-28-2013, 07:17 AM   #10
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Default Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.

Decent armour (medium plate, heavy mail, etc) should be able to resist a lance charge.
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