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Old 08-25-2011, 01:46 PM   #41
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Default Re: Dealing with high active defenses

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Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
Fair enough, That is most in setting. Though if that's the setting cap why not just say setting cap? Are there power talents in DF that aren't capped at 6? if not then "most" brakes context and goes to general where most is 4.
In DF, all power talents (and most normal talents) are capped to 6, usually as part of the template's "Power Ups"
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Old 08-25-2011, 04:14 PM   #42
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Default Re: Dealing with high active defenses

I'm so tempted to have long reach affect/neutralize Retreat...
To herding back tactic doesn't seem to work so well in my games, as combat usually ends much sooner for it to result effective. And it would be boring, anyway.
(the long reach thing is part of my wider plan to make large creatures more dangerous, somehow).
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Old 08-25-2011, 04:56 PM   #43
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Default Re: Dealing with high active defenses

I ran a very high-powered fantasy game for years that included several PCs with weapon and Shield skills at 20+, Combat Reflexes, Enhanced Defenses, etc. Several carried big, magical shields. One also had Basic Speed 10.50, and thus a ridiculous Dodge to boot. It was typical for these PCs to have two to four active defense rolls a turn at 17-24, often spread out among enough different defense types to make "You don't have the right defense!" a fairly useless countermeasure.

Nevertheless, the PCs got wounded all the time. Causes of injury included:
  • Area-effect and explosive damage, including cone-shaped blasts of fire and frost too wide to dive out of, clouds of poison gas, and little demons who exploded like the doomchildren in Dungeon Fantasy 2. Even areas small enough to dive out of put the heroes on the ground, making other attacks more likely to hit.

  • Dangerous environments that didn't affect the bad guys: harmful magical radiation when fighting magic-resistant creatures, lava when fighting fire demons, narrow walkways over pits when fighting flying foes, and so on. Similar to area-effect and explosive damage, but caused by the world, not by opponents. The enemies just had to be in the way and too dangerous to ignore, so that the heroes had no choice but to fight them in a bad place.

  • High-RoF attacks that required Dodge rolls to be made by vast margins to avoid all harm. Examples included full-automatic magic staffs that shot toxic energy bolts, enemy soldiers atop a wall firing ballistas loaded with sheafs of darts, and thorn-tossing animated vines.

  • Hordes! Having 100 zombies run up at full Move from all sides and start pressing meant that the PCs faced attacks from behind and had no defense. Some of these attacks were grapples, which led to ongoing harm from Wrench Limb and worrying bites, and which restrained parrying arms and prevented retreats.

  • Maledictions, not unlike the gaze of the eye of death in Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 1. Many supernatural creatures in my campaign had these. Such attacks skipped the defense roll and went directly to resistance, which could be arbitrarily difficult.

  • Surprise attacks – notably the zombies buried in walls and floors who announced themselves with a massive number of surprise grapples.
I did sometimes also use highly skilled enemies who liked Deceptive Attacks, but that wasn't my go-to solution. The best application thereof was the mirror that created evil duplicates of the heroes, forcing them to fight themselves. The octagonal room with lots of mirrors really challenged them! (To give the PCs a chance, the mirror-selves were soulless constructs that lacked Luck and couldn't spend FP for extra effort in combat, while the PCs all had Luck and could spend FP.)

The secret, really, is to use GM fiat and not strive to make everything "fair." The PCs didn't have access to withering gazes or full-auto magic staffs (which only worked for an NPC race) or evil mirrors, and I didn't attempt to build a lot of the nastier attacks (like self-destructing demons who blew up their killers) on points or using established traits. Many of the nasty effects were "cosmic" or otherwise capable of bypassing DR, Magic Resistance, etc. Some of the monsters were invisible to special senses, like Danger Sense, "just because." Basically, my take was that the players could power-game the system, but in return, I could stack the deck against them.
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:10 PM   #44
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Default Re: Dealing with high active defenses

Is there a way to simulate 100's of monsters without requiring 100's of attack rolls. Of the solutions I have seen, huge mobs seem the most satisfying but can be really time consuming.
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:22 PM   #45
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Default Re: Dealing with high active defenses

I think GURPS Horror has a rule for mobs of creatures. I can't remember everything, but their melee attacks used rate of fire and recoil in a similar way to ranged weapons.
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:35 PM   #46
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Default Re: Dealing with high active defenses

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Originally Posted by Mathulhu View Post
I think GURPS Horror has a rule for mobs of creatures. I can't remember everything, but their melee attacks used rate of fire and recoil in a similar way to ranged weapons.
Yes, it;s an elaboration of similar rules in GURPS Supers. More fully fleshed out.
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:50 PM   #47
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Default Re: Dealing with high active defenses

You can also roll a bunch of 3d6 ahead of time and have them ready on a sheet. Cross off however many rolls you need, see if any are low enough to have an effect. The link in my sig has an excell file with around 3000p rolls that will fit on a 8.5 x 11. I printed it out and laminated it. Works great.
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:57 PM   #48
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Default Re: Dealing with high active defenses

Could you post the character sheet or at least the number of CP the mage have?
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Old 08-25-2011, 08:32 PM   #49
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Default Re: Dealing with high active defenses

More specifically, on the herding the retreating guy option:as a GM, I'm perfectly willing to have "I'll attack the next person who retreats into one of my front three hexes" be a valid Wait condition. Put a concealed opponent behind the dodger, wait for him to retreat into the threatened zone, and then the opponent strikes from behind:

No retreat bonus
No shield bonus
Penalty to Dodge from behind
Possible penalty due to being attacked unawares.
Cut off from future retreat routes.

And, if you play with the common house rule that someone can Evaluate while waiting, throw that bonus in, too.

Even better if the concealed grappler - in that case, it Waits until someone Retreats into the same hex, and the resulting Attack from behind quickly becomes Close Combat.
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Old 08-26-2011, 09:27 AM   #50
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Default Re: Dealing with high active defenses

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Originally Posted by goblingooner View Post

Is there a way to simulate 100's of monsters without requiring 100's of attack rolls. Of the solutions I have seen, huge mobs seem the most satisfying but can be really time consuming.
The way I did it: Plonk a batch of monster counters on the hex map, forming a big, fluid "patch" that is the horde. Each turn, push the whole kaboodle toward the PCs at the monsters' Move, simply ignoring details like monsters stepping over/around other monsters or sidestepping, and which monster moves first. Creatures in a horde are interchangeable anyway. Once the monsters reach the PCs, have the big patch deform and flow around the PCs like water. Only roll dice for the monsters on the "front" that's actually touching the PCs. The others exist mostly to step in and replace downed ones, and should it matter, are assumed to have taken Move maneuvers. There's no need to have 100 counters (or whatever); just cycle the counters used for dead ones to the back of the horde.
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