[Thaumatology] Choosing a magic system.

[Frost]

I am mucking around with another new setting at the moment and have hit trouble trying to find a suitable magic system. Given that I hate the magic system from the Basic Set and Magic with a passion and that I have some very specific setting needs, which I don't think that this system could meet anyway, I need an alternative.

What I need is a single system that can do all of the following:

Support at least two different magical styles with the same rules.

Provide a good fit for spirit assisted casting.

Limit powerful magics while still permitting dabbling.

Having spent far longer rummaging around than I would like, I think I have it down to two candidates, either the energy accumulation variant of Book/ Path magic or threshold limited Verb/ Noun magic.

Both can be made to meet the criteria. For example giving one of my major cultures systematically constructed paths and the other eclectically structured book magic would do the trick. So would using modified vocabularies for each culture so that each culture can produce the same effects but requires a different distribution of skills.

What I would like to know is which option is likely to work best? Am I missing an alternative approach that would work better?

[Kuroshima]

You're in for a bumpy ride, as you will probably have to build parts of the system yourself (You'll need to build either the books, for path/book magic, or the vocabularies for syntactic magic). Also, you'll have to select how to assign certain design parameters. Personally, I would take a look at Ritual Path Magic
(a new magic system based on a mix of Realm and energy accumulation path magic) in Monster Hunters for inspiration.

Now, having some experience with both RPM and threshold syntactic magic, I must warn you of one thing: Magic is not fast, but if time is not the essence, the mage can easily steal the show. Also, a prepared caster is 10x the worth of an prepared something else, and 100x the worth of an unprepared caster.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

You're in for a bumpy ride, as you will probably have to build parts of the system yourself (You'll need to build either the books, for path/book magic, or the vocabularies for syntactic magic). Also, you'll have to select how to assign certain design parameters.

Paths at least seem fairly easy to create, at least once you know what they should contain. If I go the other route thresholds seem to require a little bit more work but there is enough advice to get me started and I was always planing to steal and disguise existing vocabularies from the book as a first step. So I am not that worried by the work, assuming that I can get what I want out of it at the end.

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Now, having some experience with both RPM and threshold syntactic magic, I must warn you of one thing: Magic is not fast, but if time is not the essence, the mage can easily steal the show. Also, a prepared caster is 10x the worth of an prepared something else, and 100x the worth of an unprepared caster.

I personally don't mind slow casting it creates dramatic potential and encourages teamwork. The only point of concern is the degree to which a prepared mage can break the game. I don't have monster hunters and can't really justify picking it up this month so I don't know RPM, how much does it differ from Book / Path?

Can it use stored power or does every casting require a new set of power rituals?

Could I taylor the paths to mitigate the worst effects?

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Frost

I personally don't mind slow casting it creates dramatic potential and encourages teamwork. The only point of concern is the degree to which a prepared mage can break the game. I don't have monster hunters and can't really justify picking it up this month so I don't know RPM, how much does it differ from Book / Path?

Can it use stored power or does every casting require a new set of power rituals?

Could I taylor the paths to mitigate the worst effects?

As I said, RPM is the child of syntactic realm magic, and Energy Accumulation Path magic:

• There are 10 paths, equivalent in scope to realms, or nouns in Syntactic magic (energy, body,...)
• The equivalent of the verbs (create, control, etc etc) is available to everyone, and acts as the base cost for the effect.
• Most parameters are represented with increases in cost, instead of skill penalties
• Everyone can try to make magic, but those with magery>0 have an innate power reserve, meaning that for minor effects, they don't have to accumulate energy (Magery 0 removes the -5 penalty normal people have)
• Magic is built as with syntactic (verb/noun) magic: you create energy to toss a lightning bolt, there is no standard spell list
• energy is decoupled from FP. You can convert FP into energy, but the rate is ruinous.

Technically, RPM draws a lot from Thaumatology, and as such, it's an excellent worked example. Worth the cover price of the book by itself.

As for having a prepared mage be much better than a an unprepared one, it's due to the twin facts that magic is slow, and that it can have persistent effects: In situations where time's the essence, like combat or defusing a bomb, you won't be able to cast more than one spell, if any. If you don't know what you're against, you have to guess, and then the spell will fizzle if you guessed wrong. The solution is to research before going in, cast any appropriate buffs, with their duration extended enough that they won't expire halfway though the action, and finally carry charms, the equivalent of single use fetishes in Path/Book magic: you cast them ritually in the safety of your sanctum, and trigger them in the field.

When time is not the essence, the sheer versatility of magic can make upstage even dedicated professionals.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Frost

I

Having spent far longer rummaging around than I would like, I think I have it down to two candidates, either the energy accumulation variant of Book/ Path magic or threshold limited Verb/ Noun magic.

Do you have a perspective player who either of these alternatives would interest? I'd ignore either of them as a PC and believe I'd be able to get away with it.

Well, I'll' amend that statement. My examinatiuons of the systems tell me that Energy accumulation molsty just makes Path/Book not work, especially if you flavor the energy. It's too many hoops to jump through for the results.

Path/Book already prefers slow and subtle but Energy Accumulation limitis the overall power of the effects achieved to the minimum categories of effects. With Effects Shaping if I really had a niche for a particular ritual I could buy it up to the max to get dependable and useful results. There are very limited options to improve your ability with Energy Accumulation.

Noun/Verb Threshold Magic could have a niche I could see for producing very flexible effects for relatively rare ciurcumnstances i.e. a needed magical efect every 1 to 4 days at default Thresh and RR.

This could stlll add up to my character spending a lot of cp for "provide plot device" and I probably wouldn't do it, but I can see a theoretical niche.

<shrug> Not everyone likes what I like and you might know some one who'd want to screw around with one of the the other of these very limited options.

However, if you don't have a potential player in mond, you're the audience for these ssytems. Choos which one _you_ prefer and if you never run this setting or no PC ever chooses to use them at least you'll have gotten something out of them.

[trooper6]

I just ran a Renaissance game with Path/Book Energy Accumulating and the players really enjoyed themselves. I think it worked really well.

I had two systems: Regular Path Energy Accumulating and Spirit Assisted (with Spiritual Distortion).

The way I differentiated different traditions is that I limited the Paths available. So Group 1 had access to 4 paths, Group 2 had access to 4 different paths, etc.

It worked out really well.

[MagiMaster]

I can tell you that if you allow players to buy Path/Book Adept, especially multiple times, they can quickly become very powerful. (I was one of the players in that game, but if I was running it, I'd probably charge more to buy it a second or third time.)

[trooper6]

In my game the normal mages couldn't buy Path/Book Adept. The only people who had access to that were those who were doing spirit assisted magic. It was a gift from the Spirit.

But there is always a trade off...in my game, the addition of a very dangerous Secret.

[The Colonel]

I've been tempted to combine energy accumulating and effect shaping - first gather your energy, then try to do something with it. Botch either and things get exciting... this would be for a low magic setting, obviously...

[Frost]

Originally Posted by trooper6

I just ran a Renaissance game with Path/Book Energy Accumulating and the players really enjoyed themselves. I think it worked really well.

I had two systems: Regular Path Energy Accumulating and Spirit Assisted (with Spiritual Distortion).

The way I differentiated different traditions is that I limited the Paths available. So Group 1 had access to 4 paths, Group 2 had access to 4 different paths, etc.

It worked out really well.

You were working with many of the same ideas I am trying to go for, so at least now I know that it can be done.

Out of interest how did you set up the parameters? Did you use Magery and if so how?